Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

On 23 Jul 2008, at 12:53 PM, Srinivas Annam wrote:

> Hi Aaron,
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Aaron Leventhal  
> <aaronleventhal@moonset.net
>> wrote:
>
>> Hi Sri,
>>
>> I have the idea, although I had not seen a scenario where you want  
>> the
>> menu text to be different from what's shown visually yet.
>
>
> Not different, but the text is not being shown visually at all in  
> these
> cases. Here are some scenarios -
>
>    1. You have a listbox (visually not titled),

Why?  Why would you do this?

If there is no explicit label for the listbox, is it because of  
information
in the context?

Can't admit this is a use case we should address unless I understand why
there is an unlabeled control on the page.

Can you give examples from the live Web of such a circumstance (that we
wouldn't all rewrite to include a label text)?

> which takes focus on itself
>    and subsequently on it's list items. Provide a title on the  
> listbox which
>    has the outermost div and the option items being inside. The  
> title provided
>    on the listbox bleeds through as I hover over on any of the  
> option items.
>    (see the modified listbox example I sent earlier)
>    2. Have a menu button (with a role of button and haspopup is set to
>    true), the button has it's own text and drop down arrow will  
> show a popup
>    menu and set the focus to popup. Adding a title on the popup  
> menu will
>    introduce a tooltip as I hover over any of the menu items.

if you give it @role="button" then the 'own text' that the button has is
used for the accessible name *in preference to* any @title value,  
already.
So you don't need an @title to give this button an accessible name.  If
'subtree' is acceptable, it takes precedence over @title.

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#nameref

We have a rewrite in process of the 'nameFrom' discussion in the spec
that should make this even clearer.

>    3. Similarly a tree having the outermost div and a title.  
> Hovering on the
>    tree items will show the title as tooltip.

Why is the identification of this tree not visible in the context?  Live
examples, please?

I think that you have an important issue, in terms of destructive  
interference between
the tooltip behavior that the browser will implement with @title and the
action of @aria-labelledby or nameFrom='subtree' under the covers.   
But so far
the leaves should be covered by roles that allow nameFrom='subtree'  
and the
roots should have visible text usable as a label in the context that  
you can
hook with @aria-labelledby.

Using @title to give an element an accessible name can be awkward,  
but when
this is so, there would seem to usually be a better option using  
'subtree'
(where allowed) or @aria-labelledby text.

Al

> When I first encountered the issue I did not see it so much as a  
> bug in the
> browser, but I do want to understand why you think it is. What is the
> expected behavior when you have a title on a div, should the  
> tooltip be
> shown across the entire area that the div is covering or not (since  
> there is
> no title for the child elements)? Would love to hear your thoughts.
>
> -- Srinivas
>
>
>> How common do
>> you think that is? I take your idea seriously but would like to know
>> when/why that happens.  Is it because of the Firefox bug where the
>> hidden descendants are showing up in the name? (Because, if it's  
>> because
>> of a bug I don't think we should add a new feature; we should
>> just fix the bug instead).
>>
>> - Aaron
>>
>> Srinivas Annam wrote:
>>> I would like to provide an additional example in the hopes of  
>>> clarifying.
>>> Take the scenario I would have used title which is also the case  
>>> where I
>>> don't have the text for acc name anywhere else. So by using
>> aria-labelledby
>>> for such case you would have to serve the additional bytes which  
>>> when
>>> multiplied by the number of times used in your application and  
>>> repeated
>> over
>>> millions of downloads it can make a huge difference in application
>>> performance.
>>>
>>> Here I have code snippets for each case -
>>>
>>> *<div class="ofscr" id="stid">*My menu name*</div>*
>>> <div role="menu" *aria-labelledby="stid"*>
>>>    ... items go here
>>> </div>
>>>
>>> vs.
>>>
>>> **<div role="menu" *aria-name="*My menu name*"*>
>>>    ... items go here
>>> </div>
>>>
>>>> From above you can see that there is a difference of 48 bytes  
>>>> per usage,
>> now
>>> multiply that by three. Now, assume that you have 1M page  
>>> servings / day,
>>> you get 144MB of extra bytes to be served, all because I couldn't  
>>> use a
>>> title! :) Hope you get the idea.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Srinivas
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Srinivas Annam<annams@google.com>
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jon,
>>>>
>>>> My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not
>>>> *forced* to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not imagine  
>>>> names
>> of
>>>> menus and listboxes lying around in all of today's practical
>> applications.
>>>>
>>>> I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload title  
>>>> has
>> become
>>>> unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and
>>>> equivalent, such as aria-name in its place.
>>>>
>>>> Srinivas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon Gunderson<jongund@illinois.edu
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Srinivas,
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible  
>>>>> to reuse
>>>>> content already on the page and could actually be configurable  
>>>>> if the
>> web
>>>>> application, if the developer provides an interface for the  
>>>>> user to
>>>>> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Example:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---- Original message ----
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700
>>>>>> From: Srinivas Annam<annams@google.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>>>>>> To: Jon Gunderson<jongund@illinois.edu>
>>>>>> Cc: dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org, wai-xtech@w3.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards
>>>>>>    roles that support title as a way of providing acc
>>>>>>    name -- getting name from child content or
>>>>>>    aria-labelledby are different use cases which are
>>>>>>    not at discussion here. Given the side effect of
>>>>>>    title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there
>>>>>>    be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why
>>>>>>    not have aria-name which can provide the same
>>>>>>    purpose but without the side effect?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    -- Srinivas
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson
>>>>>>    <jongund@illinois.edu>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Srinivas,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text
>>>>>>      nodes to generate an accessible name for each
>>>>>>      option.
>>>>>>      Jon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      ---- Original message ----
>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
>>>>>>> From: Srinivas Annam<annams@google.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Using title for ARIA name is
>>>>>>      impractical!
>>>>>>> To: dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
>>>>>>> Cc: wai-xtech@w3.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The current recommendation requires the usage of
>>>>>>      title attribute to provide
>>>>>>> a name for widgets of the following roles:
>>>>>>      combobox, grid, group, img, list,
>>>>>>> listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup,
>>>>>>      slider, spinbutton,
>>>>>>> textbox, tree, treegrid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of
>>>>>>      visible child elements and that
>>>>>>> each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are
>>>>>>      being created using a div.
>>>>>>> The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as
>>>>>>      "listbox" and each of the
>>>>>>> list items having a role of "option". Now, assume
>>>>>>      that the listbox has a
>>>>>>> title defined on it (so it could provide an acc
>>>>>>      name per current
>>>>>>> recommendation) like below:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
>>>>>>> aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
>>>>>>>   <div role="option" id="listbox1-1"
>>>>>>      class="selected"
>>>>>>> aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
>>>>>>>   <div role="option" id="listbox1-2">item
>>>>>>      2</div>
>>>>>>>   <div role="option" id="listbox1-3">item
>>>>>>      3</div>
>>>>>>> </div>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At this time you would notice that hovering over
>>>>>>      with mouse on anywhere over
>>>>>>> the listbox area (including where the individual
>>>>>>      items are shown) would show
>>>>>>> a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a
>>>>>>      side effect of browser
>>>>>>> usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major
>>>>>>      UI implication, IMO, this
>>>>>>> makes the usage of title to get an acc name on
>>>>>>      the roles mentioned highly
>>>>>>> impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts
>>>>>>      or ideas. Or if someone
>>>>>>> knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a
>>>>>>      title.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Srinivas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Srinivas Annam
>>>>>>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>>>> Google, Inc.
>>>>>>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>>>> Email: annams@google.com
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>>>>>>> dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>>>>>      Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>      Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>>>>>      Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Rehabilitation Education Center
>>>>>>      Room 86
>>>>>>      1207 S. Oak Street
>>>>>>      Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>>>>>      WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    --
>>>>>>    Srinivas Annam
>>>>>>    Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>>>    Google, Inc.
>>>>>>    Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>>>    Email: annams@google.com
>>>>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>>>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>>>> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>>>
>>>>> Rehabilitation Education Center
>>>>> Room 86
>>>>> 1207 S. Oak Street
>>>>> Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>>>
>>>>> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>>
>>>>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>>>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Srinivas Annam
>>>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>> Google, Inc.
>>>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>> Email: annams@google.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Srinivas Annam
> Software Engineer, Accessibility
> Google, Inc.
> Cell: 408.898.4928
> Email: annams@google.com
> _______________________________________________
> dev-accessibility mailing list
> dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility

Received on Wednesday, 23 July 2008 18:38:45 UTC