- From: Srinivas Annam <annams@google.com>
- Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:50:27 -0700
- To: Aaron Leventhal <aaronleventhal@moonset.net>
- Cc: dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org, wai-xtech@w3.org
- Message-ID: <8e8d44860807231050p16c95de6y12bcac6923b7bdd9@mail.gmail.com>
In all the scenarios I explained there is nothing being shown, so I do need an accessible name for all of them. Please take a look at the sample I provided which showcases the problem. -- Srinivas On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Aaron Leventhal < aaronleventhal@moonset.net> wrote: > That's definitely the expected behavior for title (being part of HTML not > ARIA). > > My question was really, when do you need to have an accessible name > different from what's shown? > > - Aaron > > Srinivas Annam wrote: > >> Hi Aaron, >> >> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Aaron Leventhal < >> aaronleventhal@moonset.net <mailto:aaronleventhal@moonset.net>> wrote: >> >> Hi Sri, >> >> I have the idea, although I had not seen a scenario where you want the >> menu text to be different from what's shown visually yet. >> >> Not different, but the text is not being shown visually at all in these >> cases. Here are some scenarios - >> >> 1. You have a listbox (visually not titled), which takes focus on >> itself and subsequently on it's list items. Provide a title on >> the listbox which has the outermost div and the option items >> being inside. The title provided on the listbox bleeds through >> as I hover over on any of the option items. (see the modified >> listbox example I sent earlier) >> 2. Have a menu button (with a role of button and haspopup is set to >> true), the button has it's own text and drop down arrow will >> show a popup menu and set the focus to popup. Adding a title on >> the popup menu will introduce a tooltip as I hover over any of >> the menu items. >> 3. Similarly a tree having the outermost div and a title. Hovering >> >> on the tree items will show the title as tooltip. >> >> When I first encountered the issue I did not see it so much as a bug in >> the browser, but I do want to understand why you think it is. What is the >> expected behavior when you have a title on a div, should the tooltip be >> shown across the entire area that the div is covering or not (since there is >> no title for the child elements)? Would love to hear your thoughts. >> >> -- Srinivas >> >> How common do >> you think that is? I take your idea seriously but would like to know >> when/why that happens. Is it because of the Firefox bug where the >> hidden descendants are showing up in the name? (Because, if it's >> because >> of a bug I don't think we should add a new feature; we should >> just fix the bug instead). >> >> - Aaron >> >> Srinivas Annam wrote: >> > I would like to provide an additional example in the hopes of >> clarifying. >> > Take the scenario I would have used title which is also the case >> where I >> > don't have the text for acc name anywhere else. So by using >> aria-labelledby >> > for such case you would have to serve the additional bytes which >> when >> > multiplied by the number of times used in your application and >> repeated over >> > millions of downloads it can make a huge difference in application >> > performance. >> > >> > Here I have code snippets for each case - >> > >> > *<div class="ofscr" id="stid">*My menu name*</div>* >> > <div role="menu" *aria-labelledby="stid"*> >> > ... items go here >> > </div> >> > >> > vs. >> > >> > **<div role="menu" *aria-name="*My menu name*"*> >> > ... items go here >> > </div> >> > >> >> From above you can see that there is a difference of 48 bytes >> per usage, now >> > multiply that by three. Now, assume that you have 1M page >> servings / day, >> > you get 144MB of extra bytes to be served, all because I >> couldn't use a >> > title! :) Hope you get the idea. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Srinivas >> > >> > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Srinivas >> Annam<annams@google.com <mailto:annams@google.com>> wrote: >> > >> >> Jon, >> >> >> >> My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not >> >> *forced* to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not >> imagine names of >> >> menus and listboxes lying around in all of today's practical >> applications. >> >> >> >> I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload >> title has become >> >> unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and >> >> equivalent, such as aria-name in its place. >> >> >> >> Srinivas >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon >> Gunderson<jongund@illinois.edu <mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>>wrote: >> >> >> >>> Srinivas, >> >>> >> >>> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible >> to reuse >> >>> content already on the page and could actually be configurable >> if the web >> >>> application, if the developer provides an interface for the >> user to >> >>> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs. >> >>> >> >>> Example: >> >>> >> >>> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php >> >>> >> >>> Jon >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ---- Original message ---- >> >>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700 >> >>>> From: Srinivas Annam<annams@google.com >> <mailto:annams@google.com>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical! >> >>>> To: Jon Gunderson<jongund@illinois.edu >> <mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>> >> >>>> Cc: dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org >> <mailto:dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org>, wai-xtech@w3.org >> <mailto:wai-xtech@w3.org> >> >>>> >> >>>> Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards >> >>>> roles that support title as a way of providing acc >> >>>> name -- getting name from child content or >> >>>> aria-labelledby are different use cases which are >> >>>> not at discussion here. Given the side effect of >> >>>> title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there >> >>>> be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why >> >>>> not have aria-name which can provide the same >> >>>> purpose but without the side effect? >> >>>> >> >>>> -- Srinivas >> >>>> >> >>>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson >> >>>> <jongund@illinois.edu <mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Srinivas, >> >>>> >> >>>> The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text >> >>>> nodes to generate an accessible name for each >> >>>> option. >> >>>> Jon >> >>>> >> >>>> ---- Original message ---- >> >>>> >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700 >> >>>> >From: Srinivas Annam<annams@google.com >> <mailto:annams@google.com>> >> >>>> >Subject: Using title for ARIA name is >> >>>> impractical! >> >>>> >To: dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org >> <mailto:dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org> >> >>>> >Cc: wai-xtech@w3.org <mailto:wai-xtech@w3.org> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :) >> >>>> > >> >>>> >The current recommendation requires the usage of >> >>>> title attribute to provide >> >>>> >a name for widgets of the following roles: >> >>>> combobox, grid, group, img, list, >> >>>> >listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup, >> >>>> slider, spinbutton, >> >>>> >textbox, tree, treegrid. >> >>>> > >> >>>> >Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of >> >>>> visible child elements and that >> >>>> >each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are >> >>>> being created using a div. >> >>>> >The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as >> >>>> "listbox" and each of the >> >>>> >list items having a role of "option". Now, assume >> >>>> that the listbox has a >> >>>> >title defined on it (so it could provide an acc >> >>>> name per current >> >>>> >recommendation) like below: >> >>>> > >> >>>> ><div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox" >> >>>> >aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1"> >> >>>> > <div role="option" id="listbox1-1" >> >>>> class="selected" >> >>>> >aria-selected="true">item 1</div> >> >>>> > <div role="option" id="listbox1-2">item >> >>>> 2</div> >> >>>> > <div role="option" id="listbox1-3">item >> >>>> 3</div> >> >>>> ></div> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >At this time you would notice that hovering over >> >>>> with mouse on anywhere over >> >>>> >the listbox area (including where the individual >> >>>> items are shown) would show >> >>>> >a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a >> >>>> side effect of browser >> >>>> >usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major >> >>>> UI implication, IMO, this >> >>>> >makes the usage of title to get an acc name on >> >>>> the roles mentioned highly >> >>>> >impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts >> >>>> or ideas. Or if someone >> >>>> >knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a >> >>>> title. >> >>>> > >> >>>> >Thanks, >> >>>> >Srinivas >> >>>> > >> >>>> >-- >> >>>> >Srinivas Annam >> >>>> >Software Engineer, Accessibility >> >>>> >Google, Inc. >> >>>> >Cell: 408.898.4928 >> >>>> >Email: annams@google.com <mailto:annams@google.com> >> >>>> >_______________________________________________ >> >>>> >dev-accessibility mailing list >> >>>> >dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org >> <mailto:dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org> >> >>>> >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility >> >>>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D. >> >>>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility >> >>>> Disability Resources and Educational Services >> >>>> >> >>>> Rehabilitation Education Center >> >>>> Room 86 >> >>>> 1207 S. Oak Street >> >>>> Champaign, Illinois 61821 >> >>>> >> >>>> Voice: (217) 244-5870 >> >>>> >> >>>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/ >> >>>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/ >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Srinivas Annam >> >>>> Software Engineer, Accessibility >> >>>> Google, Inc. >> >>>> Cell: 408.898.4928 >> >>>> Email: annams@google.com <mailto:annams@google.com> >> >>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D. >> >>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility >> >>> Disability Resources and Educational Services >> >>> >> >>> Rehabilitation Education Center >> >>> Room 86 >> >>> 1207 S. Oak Street >> >>> Champaign, Illinois 61821 >> >>> >> >>> Voice: (217) 244-5870 >> >>> >> >>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/ >> >>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Srinivas Annam >> >> Software Engineer, Accessibility >> >> Google, Inc. >> >> Cell: 408.898.4928 >> >> Email: annams@google.com <mailto:annams@google.com> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dev-accessibility mailing list >> dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org >> <mailto:dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org> >> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Srinivas Annam >> Software Engineer, Accessibility >> Google, Inc. >> Cell: 408.898.4928 >> Email: annams@google.com <mailto:annams@google.com> >> > > > -- Srinivas Annam Software Engineer, Accessibility Google, Inc. Cell: 408.898.4928 Email: annams@google.com
Received on Wednesday, 23 July 2008 17:51:14 UTC