Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Al Gilman <Alfred.S.Gilman@ieee.org>wrote:

>
> On 23 Jul 2008, at 12:53 PM, Srinivas Annam wrote:
>
>  Hi Aaron,
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Aaron Leventhal <
>> aaronleventhal@moonset.net
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>  Hi Sri,
>>>
>>> I have the idea, although I had not seen a scenario where you want the
>>> menu text to be different from what's shown visually yet.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Not different, but the text is not being shown visually at all in these
>> cases. Here are some scenarios -
>>
>>   1. You have a listbox (visually not titled),
>>
>
> Why?  Why would you do this?


Because the listbox is part of another complex widget which has a label of
it's own. The outer complex widget has no suitable ARIA role and in fact,
contains more than one ARIA widget.


>
>
> If there is no explicit label for the listbox, is it because of information
> in the context?


Yes.


>
>
> Can't admit this is a use case we should address unless I understand why
> there is an unlabeled control on the page.
>
> Can you give examples from the live Web of such a circumstance (that we
> wouldn't all rewrite to include a label text)?


Yes, in Gmail the Chat widget on the left consists of a contact list which
is part of the Chat widget. Only label that is available here is that of the
complex widget, namely "Chat".


>
>
>  which takes focus on itself
>>   and subsequently on it's list items. Provide a title on the listbox
>> which
>>   has the outermost div and the option items being inside. The title
>> provided
>>   on the listbox bleeds through as I hover over on any of the option
>> items.
>>   (see the modified listbox example I sent earlier)
>>   2. Have a menu button (with a role of button and haspopup is set to
>>   true), the button has it's own text and drop down arrow will show a
>> popup
>>   menu and set the focus to popup. Adding a title on the popup menu will
>>   introduce a tooltip as I hover over any of the menu items.
>>
>
> if you give it @role="button" then the 'own text' that the button has is
> used for the accessible name *in preference to* any @title value, already.
> So you don't need an @title to give this button an accessible name.  If
> 'subtree' is acceptable, it takes precedence over @title.
>
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#nameref
>
> We have a rewrite in process of the 'nameFrom' discussion in the spec
> that should make this even clearer.
>
>    3. Similarly a tree having the outermost div and a title. Hovering on
>> the
>>   tree items will show the title as tooltip.
>>
>
> Why is the identification of this tree not visible in the context?  Live
> examples, please?


Again, because it's part of a complex widget and doesn't have a visible
title.


>
>
> I think that you have an important issue, in terms of destructive
> interference between
> the tooltip behavior that the browser will implement with @title and the
> action of @aria-labelledby or nameFrom='subtree' under the covers.  But so
> far
> the leaves should be covered by roles that allow nameFrom='subtree' and the
> roots should have visible text usable as a label in the context that you
> can
> hook with @aria-labelledby.
>
> Using @title to give an element an accessible name can be awkward, but when
> this is so, there would seem to usually be a better option using 'subtree'
> (where allowed) or @aria-labelledby text.


Again, we are going back @aria-labelledby as a workaround for the
awkwardsness of @title usage. So, rather than fixing the source of the
problem which is that we are re-using a HTML attribute with an obvious and
unwanted visual side-effect we are arguing why one can't use an available
work around.

I have given my reasons as to how many bytes each aria-labelledby usage will
increase, which I still feel unnecessary and avoidable (by fixing the @title
problem).


>
>
> Al
>
>
>  When I first encountered the issue I did not see it so much as a bug in
>> the
>> browser, but I do want to understand why you think it is. What is the
>> expected behavior when you have a title on a div, should the tooltip be
>> shown across the entire area that the div is covering or not (since there
>> is
>> no title for the child elements)? Would love to hear your thoughts.
>>
>> -- Srinivas
>>
>>
>>  How common do
>>> you think that is? I take your idea seriously but would like to know
>>> when/why that happens.  Is it because of the Firefox bug where the
>>> hidden descendants are showing up in the name? (Because, if it's because
>>> of a bug I don't think we should add a new feature; we should
>>> just fix the bug instead).
>>>
>>> - Aaron
>>>
>>> Srinivas Annam wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would like to provide an additional example in the hopes of
>>>> clarifying.
>>>> Take the scenario I would have used title which is also the case where I
>>>> don't have the text for acc name anywhere else. So by using
>>>>
>>> aria-labelledby
>>>
>>>> for such case you would have to serve the additional bytes which when
>>>> multiplied by the number of times used in your application and repeated
>>>>
>>> over
>>>
>>>> millions of downloads it can make a huge difference in application
>>>> performance.
>>>>
>>>> Here I have code snippets for each case -
>>>>
>>>> *<div class="ofscr" id="stid">*My menu name*</div>*
>>>> <div role="menu" *aria-labelledby="stid"*>
>>>>   ... items go here
>>>> </div>
>>>>
>>>> vs.
>>>>
>>>> **<div role="menu" *aria-name="*My menu name*"*>
>>>>   ... items go here
>>>> </div>
>>>>
>>>>  From above you can see that there is a difference of 48 bytes per
>>>>> usage,
>>>>>
>>>> now
>>>
>>>> multiply that by three. Now, assume that you have 1M page servings /
>>>> day,
>>>> you get 144MB of extra bytes to be served, all because I couldn't use a
>>>> title! :) Hope you get the idea.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Srinivas
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Srinivas Annam<annams@google.com>
>>>>
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Jon,
>>>>>
>>>>> My point is aria-labelledby is a good work around but we should not
>>>>> *forced* to use it all the time. Additionally, I can not imagine names
>>>>>
>>>> of
>>>
>>>> menus and listboxes lying around in all of today's practical
>>>>>
>>>> applications.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I think we all agreed that because of the tooltip overload title has
>>>>>
>>>> become
>>>
>>>> unusable, given that I am proposing that we create an alternate and
>>>>> equivalent, such as aria-name in its place.
>>>>>
>>>>> Srinivas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Jon Gunderson<jongund@illinois.edu
>>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Srinivas,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally I like aria-labelledby by since it is very flexible to
>>>>>> reuse
>>>>>> content already on the page and could actually be configurable if the
>>>>>>
>>>>> web
>>>
>>>> application, if the developer provides an interface for the user to
>>>>>> configure what is included in the aria-labelledby list of IDREFs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Example:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/grid/grid2.php
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---- Original message ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:14:02 -0700
>>>>>>> From: Srinivas Annam<annams@google.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Using title for ARIA name is impractical!
>>>>>>> To: Jon Gunderson<jongund@illinois.edu>
>>>>>>> Cc: dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org, wai-xtech@w3.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Let me clarify this, my question is directly towards
>>>>>>>   roles that support title as a way of providing acc
>>>>>>>   name -- getting name from child content or
>>>>>>>   aria-labelledby are different use cases which are
>>>>>>>   not at discussion here. Given the side effect of
>>>>>>>   title to provide a tooltip for mouse hover can there
>>>>>>>   be or should there be an alternate mechanism? Why
>>>>>>>   not have aria-name which can provide the same
>>>>>>>   purpose but without the side effect?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   -- Srinivas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Jon Gunderson
>>>>>>>   <jongund@illinois.edu>  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Srinivas,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     The "option" role will use the DOM subtree text
>>>>>>>     nodes to generate an accessible name for each
>>>>>>>     option.
>>>>>>>     Jon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     ---- Original message ----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:02:41 -0700
>>>>>>>> From: Srinivas Annam<annams@google.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Using title for ARIA name is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     impractical!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To: dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
>>>>>>>> Cc: wai-xtech@w3.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my continuing series of ARIA discoveries :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The current recommendation requires the usage of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     title attribute to provide
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a name for widgets of the following roles:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     combobox, grid, group, img, list,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> listbox, menu, menubar, progressbar, radiogroup,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     slider, spinbutton,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> textbox, tree, treegrid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now imagine a listbox or a tree with lot of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     visible child elements and that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> each of these widgets (lisbox and options) are
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     being created using a div.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The outerdiv for the listbox having it's role as
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "listbox" and each of the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> list items having a role of "option". Now, assume
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     that the listbox has a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> title defined on it (so it could provide an acc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     name per current
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> recommendation) like below:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <div role="listbox" title="My Own Listbox"
>>>>>>>> aria-activedescendant="listbox1-1">
>>>>>>>>  <div role="option" id="listbox1-1"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     class="selected"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> aria-selected="true">item 1</div>
>>>>>>>>  <div role="option" id="listbox1-2">item
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     2</div>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  <div role="option" id="listbox1-3">item
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     3</div>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> </div>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At this time you would notice that hovering over
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     with mouse on anywhere over
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the listbox area (including where the individual
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     items are shown) would show
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a tooltip with the title. This is coming in as a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     side effect of browser
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> usage of title for the tooltip. Given this major
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     UI implication, IMO, this
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> makes the usage of title to get an acc name on
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     the roles mentioned highly
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> impractical. I would like to hear other thoughts
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     or ideas. Or if someone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> knows a way of getting ARIA name without using a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     title.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Srinivas
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Srinivas Annam
>>>>>>>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>>>>> Google, Inc.
>>>>>>>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>>>>> Email: annams@google.com
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>>>>>>>> dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
>>>>>>>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>     Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>>>>>>     Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Rehabilitation Education Center
>>>>>>>     Room 86
>>>>>>>     1207 S. Oak Street
>>>>>>>     Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>>>>>>     WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   --
>>>>>>>   Srinivas Annam
>>>>>>>   Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>>>>   Google, Inc.
>>>>>>>   Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>>>>   Email: annams@google.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>>>>>> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rehabilitation Education Center
>>>>>> Room 86
>>>>>> 1207 S. Oak Street
>>>>>> Champaign, Illinois 61821
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>>>>>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Srinivas Annam
>>>>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>> Google, Inc.
>>>>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>>>>> Email: annams@google.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>>> dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
>>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Srinivas Annam
>> Software Engineer, Accessibility
>> Google, Inc.
>> Cell: 408.898.4928
>> Email: annams@google.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> dev-accessibility mailing list
>> dev-accessibility@lists.mozilla.org
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-accessibility
>>
>
>


-- 
Srinivas Annam
Software Engineer, Accessibility
Google, Inc.
Cell: 408.898.4928
Email: annams@google.com