RE: Creating accessible tables for layout and data: alt attributes

Hi,

Being a person who is blind, and use a crane reader, I would say labeling of
graphics, in general, is wonderful.  However, I personally see no reason to
go overboard with graphics which aren't needed.

Like many sighted users, we tend to want to get to the information we're
looking for and leave.  That being said, I would much rather have too much
description, than not enough.  <grin>

I'm currently developing our own website for a non-profit.  I'm even having
hard time determining what should and shouldn't be labeled.  It's  a pure
judgment call.

Hope that helps a little.

Warmly,
Hy


Accessible Activities
P.O. Box 75581
Seattle, WA   98125-0581

Local Voice / Fax:  206-926-0269
Toll-Free Voice / Fax: 1-800-250-2124


-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On
Behalf Of David Poehlman
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:20 PM
To: Joel Ward; WAI List
Subject: Re: Creating accessible tables for layout and data: alt
attributes


I don't care how many alt attribs are on a page but I do care that alt
is used appropriately as has been discussed on this thread and
elsewhere.  alt"" is an acceptable implementation of alt as is alt=" "
and it leaves no one out if done with propper care.  If someone is
frustrated that they are seeing something that is not alted with but
null, they can find out what tjhe image is and all other 99 of the same
one on the page if they like.  You can be creative with alt text as has
been shown here and have it perfectly blend with the page.  I'd like to
find a way to do this with spacers but have not come up with one.  I
look at a lot of source code.  If I see a lot of image files all over
the place, I'll often flip to the source to see what is going on.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Ward" <ward_joel@bah.com>
To: "WAI List" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: Creating accessible tables for layout and data: alt
attributes


Kynn,

You make a good point!

The key is deciding if the information is effectively presented
somewhere
else on the page.  Often it is not.  When I said an author may be
discriminating, I mean that the author may decide that some users don't
deserve the same content.  Isn't that discrimination?  (Not necessarily
a
bad thing in all situations, because content providers want to be
careful
about local customs and conventions, for example.)

If the author provides the content elsewhere, then I agree it may be
redundant and not needed.  But if the author is not sure, then I'd err
on
the safe side and add the alt text.  Also, redundancy is not always a
bad
thing.  Like you said, irritation is not an accessibility issue.  Some
users
may be irritated about the additional text, some may be irritated that
they
are left out.

And with regards to the amount of description you include, I would say
the
alt text is simply a label for what the image conveys, not necessarily
including every detail.  The longdesc or D-link could describe the image
in
detail.  That, of course, is optional and not always implemented.

What do assistive technology users think?  Anyone out there feel you are
being left out if alt text is not included for all images (apart from
spacers)?

Joel

----- Original Message -----
From: <kynn-eda@idyllmtn.com>
To: "Joel Ward" <ward_joel@bah.com>
Cc: "WAI List" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: Creating accessible tables for layout and data: alt
attributes


> Joel wrote:
> > However, I feel user is the one who should decide whether to read or
ignore
> > the information.  If the author can add simple alt text to an image
to
> > convey what's in the image, then user has the option whether to
interpret it
> > or not.
>
> Right, but it's also possible to overdo things. It's possible to add
> complex alt text to all images which could ultimately distract from
> the purpose of the page.
>
> > If the author feels only visual users deserve to know about their
images,
> > then I feel they may be discriminating.
>
> I think that's a very loaded term -- I don't know where you are from,
> actually, but at least out here a claim of "discrimination" is very
> serious.
>
> Therefore I think it's important to look further at what we are
talking
> about and determine to what degree it is discrimination.
>
> For example, let's say that I'm writing a column for an online web
> zine. Along with the column, there's a picture of me. The question
> now is how do you label the picture of me?
>
> Is it important that I'm a white man? That wear eyeglasses? That I'm
> slightly overweight? That I have a goatee? That I have blue eyes and
> blond hair? That I am 6'2"? That I am wearing a suit or a sweater or
> a tie or no tie? Does the color of my tie matter? What if I'm wearing
> a pin which can't be made out clearly but it's obvious that I'm
> wearing one? What about my age? What about my probable ethnic
> background and possibly even social class? What about the lighting
> where I am, and the background?
>
> This is all information which _could_ be conveyed in the visual
> image. The question then is "what needs to be represented, either in
> alt text or in a long description?"
>
> There are two approaches:
>
> * The _important_ information needs to be conveyed, where the
>   importance is determined by the author's knowledge of the page's
>   purpose.
>
> * All possible information from the visual graphic needs to be
>   provided to the user, because otherwise it's discrimination.
>
> I'm obviously on the side of the first; the second is much too
> absolutist and ultimately reaches absurdness. If you leave out the
> fact that I am wearing a tie, then you're denying information to
> users who can't see the picture -- is that discrimination?  Within
> the context of the page, which is meant to offer up a column of
> information, I would say clearly not.
>
> > Since it's easy enough to add alt text, why not just add it?
>
> Because too much content can weaken the message of the page. The
> question isn't whether to use alt text, it's whether or not there's
> additional information that _should_ be conveyed which isn't getting
> conveyed.
>
> > And like I said before, if the image isn't
> > important enough for alt text, why include it at all?
>
> Down that way lies madness. As long as the content is accessible in
> other ways, _or_ is unimportant to the purpose of the page, there's no
> need to make that information accessible. And removing it, even if it
> will help other users understand the page, is an even worse idea.
>
> --Kynn
>
>
>

Received on Thursday, 31 January 2002 21:08:28 UTC