- From: Charles F. Munat <charles@munat.com>
- Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 22:23:11 -0700
- To: "Dan Rogers" <danro@microsoft.com>, "'Charles F. Munat'" <charles@munat.com>
- Cc: <jn@tommy.demon.co.uk>, <wai@tommy.demon.co.uk>, <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Dan, Thank you for your prompt, well reasoned, and polite reply. Your message was cross posted to the WAI-IG group, so I wasn't privy to the earlier debunkings (unless I just missed them). I apologize for causing you to repeat yourself. While I originally responded to what I perceived as a vagueness in your rebuttal vis-à-vis the claims made (apparently) in the original article, I am now genuinely interested in learning more. I remain skeptical of seemingly altruistic behavior by large corporations. Still, I'm willing to keep an open mind. At this point, I'd really like to hear IBM's version of events. Any idea who I might talk to? I will take a more in-depth look at the BizTalk site, and will check the links you offered. I have been following the XML debate for some time and have some experience with the language, but haven't had time recently to peruse the available schemas. Most of my current work is done with Cold Fusion (though I am generating valid XHTML with it). Thank you for your kind offer of help. I will contact you if I have further questions. Sincerely, Charles F. Munat, Seattle, Washington -----Original Message----- From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Dan Rogers Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 5:23 PM To: 'Charles F. Munat' Cc: jn@tommy.demon.co.uk; wai@tommy.demon.co.uk; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org Subject: copyright rumors debunked - again Hi Charles, Thanks for being so clear about your concerns. I'll try and address them here one by one. Regarding copyright and www.biztalk.org: ---------------------------------------- The original letter that started this long chain did mention copyright, and I've addressed that several times over now, I'll do it again for your benefit here. The public statement on the web site can be read here: http://www.biztalk.org/community/messagedetail.asp?thread=102011&group=2748. It's tedious reading, but that's the nature of debunking rumors. For the record, the statements regarding copyright owndership that were rumored, alegedly by IBM, and repeated by yourself, are false. Look at the schemas on www.biztalk.org. I do see a few schemas with copyrights on them (search for "OAG" for instance). I see no schemas that contain any claims by Microsoft. Each contributor decides on the copyright mark, if any, for each schema contributed to the library. The website itself is copyrighted. Microsoft, who produced the software, artwork and ultimate display, does as a matter of course own a copyright on the entire site and the presentation of each page. This is a commonplace practice for most public web sites. Regarding the library web site: ------------------------------- The purpose of the schema library is to promote the use and adoption of standard XML. The long term mission of the web site is to remove entry, learning and adoption barriers to XML take-off. Since the move to the XML schema standard will not be intuitive nor easy, we estabilshed this web site. Microsoft is adopting w3C standard Schema in our products as soon as practical after the schema standard is ratified. Since tens of thousands of our customers are looking at XML today, and there is no other active schema library that I know of, we built one to help people learn and use XML schemas. Is there a motive behind this for Microsoft? Absolutely. We sell software (that's what software companies do!). That software will use the XML schema standard. We want as many of our customers using software that uses the W3C standard as possible. Regarding Oasis: ---------------- OASIS is a group that has existed for some time as the SGML consortium. The focus of the renamed group is defining interchange standards to allow metadata repositories to share information via a common data format. Microsoft is a paying member of the OASIS (http://www.oasis-open.org) group. OASIS has several committees that are defining standards that will or may have impact on Microsoft customers. These are currently: 1. DocBook 2. XML conformance 3. Technical specifications for XML registry and Repository. The Technical specifications for XML registry and Repository recently started the first planned 18 month schedule to address the specifications that define interfaces between systems that register schemas, and systems that serve as XML repositories. These terms are very loosely defined as of yet. In order to track progress of this open process, only paying members are allowed to see the plans and schedules. Sign up now at Oasis-open.org if you are interested. Microsoft has joined this initiative for the same reason that we join every industry consortuim. To see what the eventual standard might mean to our customers and to gain an insight into the ultimate ability of the organization to deliver on a universal standard. Regarding your own goals: ------------------------- You seem interested in XML. If you want to learn more about the content of www.BizTalk.org, please visit. If you need help getting your free login, write and I'll set up an account for you. Hopefully, you can be the own judge and determine whether you want to use the free library at www.biztalk.org, whether to learn about schemas, download tools to help you build applications that use XML, or make your own schemas available with no strings to a large audience. It's your choice. I hope this helps you, Best Regards, Dan Rogers Program Manager - www.biztalk.org Microsoft Corporation -----Original Message----- From: Charles F. Munat [mailto:charles@munat.com] Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 12:25 PM To: jn@tommy.demon.co.uk; Dan Rogers; wai@tommy.demon.co.uk; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org Subject: RE: How to make XML proprietary I am happy to hear that Microsoft isn't trying to make XML proprietary (yet). And I'm always happy to hear that a company is concerned about accessibility. For Microsoft, the results have been a mixed bag, but generally positive. That said, I do have a few remarks to make about Dan Rogers rebuttal: IMHO, it is a very carefully worded and clever reply, since it sounds great but says nothing substantive. I'm no expert on the current XML fuss, but even I can see that one of IBM's points was that the BizTalk XML data definitions were copyrighted by Microsoft. Where does Dan address this issue? Instead we get a carefully worded explanation of what "proprietary" means. Worse, the defense of proprietary is that it's just good capitalism. Sigh. Frankly, capitalism is a pretty awful system. Not that I like many of the alternatives currently in vogue, but I don't think that defending something as normal to capitalism is equivalent to saying it's a good thing for joe public. So let's take a look at the other point that Dan ignores. According to IBM, there is already an industry sponsored group, Oasis, working on this issue. So why does Microsoft feel the need to establish its own group (with a trademarked name, copyrighted definitions, etc.)? The answer seems obvious: control. So let's stop pretending that that's not an issue here. Defining proprietary narrowly so you can avoid sounding like bad guys is not the same as being open and supportive of things that will benefit the consumer and the industry in general (like the open source movement, another Microsoft favorite). Microsoft has developed BizTalk for one reason only: to benefit Microsoft. Anyone who thinks that Microsoft (or IBM or any other TNC) is working for the benefit of humanity is sadly deluded. Capitalism is about profit and profit is about control (of property, of market share, etc.). It has nothing to do with benefit to the consumer. As consumers, however, we have an equal right to support what benefits us, and to resist what does not. Frankly, I don't see how BizTalk benefits me when there is already an industry-funded group doing the same sort of work, but without the pro-Microsoft bent. I'm suspicious, and nothing Dan has said has assuaged that suspicion. And when I consider Microsoft's record on issues of control vs. benefit to the consumer, I feel even more suspicious. So my comment to Dan is this: Spare me the Microsoft-as-humanitarian crap. I know what Microsoft is getting out of this. Tell me what's in it for me. What is it about BizTalk and Microsoft's approach to XML that's going to benefit me in ways that Oasis won't? Charles F. Munat Seattle, Washington
Received on Tuesday, 19 October 1999 01:24:58 UTC