Re: Visible controls updates

Hi Wilco,

A nuanced difference: ""Indicator" means "to show that something exists"."

Actually friend, an Indicator is the *thing *that shows something exists,
and an *indication* is showing something exists: the first is a thing, the
second is a state.

Not sure if or how that has an impact on the text in question, but broadly
speaking (and with no offence to you or Gundala) I am concerned that for
some users (for whom English may not be their first language) this remains
unclear.

With respect
JF

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 9:58 AM Wilco Fiers <wilco.fiers@deque.com> wrote:

> Hey Alastair,
>
> "Indicator" means "to show that something exists". But what I think this
> needs to express is "show *where *something can be found". I think the
> current wording does that by using the word "identify". For me, the new
> wording does not require that users need to some indicator of how to reveal
> the hidden component.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:38 PM Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Gundula, Wilco,
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m still not understanding the issue.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just be clear about the versions, this is the current one from the
>> editor’s draft:
>>
>> “Where receiving pointer hover or keyboard focus triggers user interface
>> components to be visible, information needed to identify that user
>> interface components are available is visible, except when:”
>>
>>
>>
>> This is the proposed update:
>>
>> “When user interface components are invisible until hover or focus makes
>> them visible, provide a visible indicator that the components are
>> available. Except when:”
>>
>>
>>
>> In the general English sense of the words, “information needed to
>> identify that user interface components are available is visible” =
>> “provide a visible indicator that the components are available”
>>
>>
>>
>> Breaking it down:
>>
>>    - “that the components are available” is the same in both.
>>    - “visible” = “is visible”
>>    - “indicator” = “information needed to identify”
>>
>>
>>
>> Is it that last one which is a problem? The definition of “indicator” is
>> pretty solid for that.
>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/indicates [to show
>> (something); to show that (something) exists or is true; to direct
>> attention to (someone or something) usually by pointing; to show or suggest
>> that (something) is needed]
>>
>>
>>
>> On the example of having some text on the page which tells you where
>> something is available, I think that would pass both versions above.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Alastair
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Niemann, Gundula
>>
>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>>
>> „identify that user interface components are available” does not imply to
>> identify which element is available, but it indicates that the location
>> should be clearly indicated.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Gundula
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Wilco Fiers <wilco.fiers@deque.com>
>> *Sent:* Freitag, 12. November 2021 18:55
>> *To:* Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
>> *Cc:* WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: Visible controls updates
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey Alastair,
>> The current wording no longer has a connection between the visual
>> indicator and the component. I think in the new wording, putting a text on
>> the page that says "this submit button is available on hover" meets the
>> requirement, even though it provides no information on where to find that
>> hidden component.
>>
>> I don't think the word "identify" does an amazing job of capturing that
>> case, but I think there's at least an argument to be made that if there's
>> no information on where to find that component, it isn't "identifying" it.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 6:25 PM Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Wilco & group,
>>
>>
>>
>> In the last meeting we discussed the re-write of Visible controls:
>>
>> https://www.w3.org/2021/11/09-ag-minutes.html#item05
>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2021%2F11%2F09-ag-minutes.html%23item05&data=04%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cea63e5cfafb243356b4f08d9a83ebb9e%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C637725809684770364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=5GBQQCF91oVpATQNvRD9Q2uBsevuigjZslVlprLudsc%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>> In the Friday meeting today we’ve updated that, visible in the PR:
>>
>> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2019/files
>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag%2Fpull%2F2019%2Ffiles&data=04%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cea63e5cfafb243356b4f08d9a83ebb9e%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C637725809684780318%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=D8J4SUG4fajm8oAvxjeMYuF6IRNAhGTBKjam5A85muc%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>> Wilco made some suggestions during the meeting for the first part of the
>> SC text, to say something like “provide visible indicators that identify
>> the available components", but in our discussion we thought:
>>
>>
>>
>>    - Adding the word “identify” doesn’t seem to add anything that
>>    “visible indicator” is not already saying.
>>    - Adding the verb identify has larger ramifications, e.g. “provide
>>    visible indicators that identify the available components”, would mean each
>>    available component has to be identifiable from the indicator, which is
>>    more than the intent. It doesn’t allow for grouping.
>>
>>
>>
>> We’d appreciate a little more info on what the core concern is.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> -Alastair
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> @alastc / www.nomensa.com
>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nomensa.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cea63e5cfafb243356b4f08d9a83ebb9e%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C637725809684790277%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=5W%2Fl6g66ha27EUQQISuaJJaNOEOOeBqOy%2FY1DMwFlu8%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Wilco Fiers*
>>
>> Axe-core & Axe-linter product owner - WCAG 3 Project Manager -
>> Facilitator ACT Task Force
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Wilco Fiers*
> Axe-core & Axe-linter product owner - WCAG 3 Project Manager - Facilitator
> ACT Task Force
>
>
>

-- 
*John Foliot* |
Senior Industry Specialist, Digital Accessibility |
W3C Accessibility Standards Contributor |

"I made this so long because I did not have time to make it shorter." -
Pascal "links go places, buttons do things"