Re: Visible controls updates

Hey Alastair,

"Indicator" means "to show that something exists". But what I think this
needs to express is "show *where *something can be found". I think the
current wording does that by using the word "identify". For me, the new
wording does not require that users need to some indicator of how to reveal
the hidden component.



On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:38 PM Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
wrote:

> Hi Gundula, Wilco,
>
>
>
> I’m still not understanding the issue.
>
>
>
> Just be clear about the versions, this is the current one from the
> editor’s draft:
>
> “Where receiving pointer hover or keyboard focus triggers user interface
> components to be visible, information needed to identify that user
> interface components are available is visible, except when:”
>
>
>
> This is the proposed update:
>
> “When user interface components are invisible until hover or focus makes
> them visible, provide a visible indicator that the components are
> available. Except when:”
>
>
>
> In the general English sense of the words, “information needed to identify
> that user interface components are available is visible” = “provide a
> visible indicator that the components are available”
>
>
>
> Breaking it down:
>
>    - “that the components are available” is the same in both.
>    - “visible” = “is visible”
>    - “indicator” = “information needed to identify”
>
>
>
> Is it that last one which is a problem? The definition of “indicator” is
> pretty solid for that.
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/indicates [to show
> (something); to show that (something) exists or is true; to direct
> attention to (someone or something) usually by pointing; to show or suggest
> that (something) is needed]
>
>
>
> On the example of having some text on the page which tells you where
> something is available, I think that would pass both versions above.
>
>
>
> -Alastair
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Niemann, Gundula
>
>
>
> +1
>
>
>
> „identify that user interface components are available” does not imply to
> identify which element is available, but it indicates that the location
> should be clearly indicated.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Gundula
>
>
>
> *From:* Wilco Fiers <wilco.fiers@deque.com>
> *Sent:* Freitag, 12. November 2021 18:55
> *To:* Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
> *Cc:* WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Visible controls updates
>
>
>
> Hey Alastair,
> The current wording no longer has a connection between the visual
> indicator and the component. I think in the new wording, putting a text on
> the page that says "this submit button is available on hover" meets the
> requirement, even though it provides no information on where to find that
> hidden component.
>
> I don't think the word "identify" does an amazing job of capturing that
> case, but I think there's at least an argument to be made that if there's
> no information on where to find that component, it isn't "identifying" it.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 6:25 PM Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Wilco & group,
>
>
>
> In the last meeting we discussed the re-write of Visible controls:
>
> https://www.w3.org/2021/11/09-ag-minutes.html#item05
> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2021%2F11%2F09-ag-minutes.html%23item05&data=04%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cea63e5cfafb243356b4f08d9a83ebb9e%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C637725809684770364%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=5GBQQCF91oVpATQNvRD9Q2uBsevuigjZslVlprLudsc%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> In the Friday meeting today we’ve updated that, visible in the PR:
>
> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2019/files
> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag%2Fpull%2F2019%2Ffiles&data=04%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cea63e5cfafb243356b4f08d9a83ebb9e%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C637725809684780318%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=D8J4SUG4fajm8oAvxjeMYuF6IRNAhGTBKjam5A85muc%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> Wilco made some suggestions during the meeting for the first part of the
> SC text, to say something like “provide visible indicators that identify
> the available components", but in our discussion we thought:
>
>
>
>    - Adding the word “identify” doesn’t seem to add anything that
>    “visible indicator” is not already saying.
>    - Adding the verb identify has larger ramifications, e.g. “provide
>    visible indicators that identify the available components”, would mean each
>    available component has to be identifiable from the indicator, which is
>    more than the intent. It doesn’t allow for grouping.
>
>
>
> We’d appreciate a little more info on what the core concern is.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> -Alastair
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> @alastc / www.nomensa.com
> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nomensa.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cacampbell%40nomensa.com%7Cea63e5cfafb243356b4f08d9a83ebb9e%7Cebea4ad6fbbf43bd8449c56e26692c35%7C0%7C0%7C637725809684790277%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=5W%2Fl6g66ha27EUQQISuaJJaNOEOOeBqOy%2FY1DMwFlu8%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Wilco Fiers*
>
> Axe-core & Axe-linter product owner - WCAG 3 Project Manager - Facilitator
> ACT Task Force
>
>
>


-- 
*Wilco Fiers*
Axe-core & Axe-linter product owner - WCAG 3 Project Manager - Facilitator
ACT Task Force