R: Collections of web pages

Hi, everybody,
I'm Gregorio, I work for Fondazione LIA, we are involved in making accessible publications in Italy.

To add elements to your discussion I would like to point out (even if you may already know them) the EPUB Accessibility Guidelines which are based on WCAG, but they add some criteria related to the fact that an EPUB is made up of several single documents, with a defined order:

https://www.w3.org/Submission/epub-a11y/#sec-epub-req


I'll follow the discussion,
Gregorio


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Gregorio Pellegrino
Chief Accessibility Officer

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Corso di Porta Romana 108, 20122 Milano
Tel. +39 02 89280822
www.fondazionelia.org<http://www.fondazionelia.org/> - www.libriitalianiaccessibili.org<http://www.libriitalianiaccessibili.org/>
[Icona Facebook]<https://www.facebook.com/Fondazione-LIA-Libri-Italiani-Accessibili-410025432878589>      Segui @fondazionelia

________________________________
Da: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
Inviato: mercoledì 8 aprile 2020 19:39
A: Bruce Bailey <Bailey@access-board.gov>
Cc: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>; Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>; WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; Shawn Lauriat <lauriat@google.com>; 508 <508@access-board.gov>
Oggetto: Re: Collections of web pages

Bruce writes:

> I am arguing that we make the same common sense leap for ePub and WCAG 2.2.  A typical ePub, posted online as a zip file, is a set of web pages, full stop.

+1

An E-Pub (Electronic Publication) is a singular unit that comprises multiple screens or views, but is traditionally thought-of as a single and complete entity.
It traditionally also has a single table-of-contents, which I will argue also suggests to me that a single "findable help" would be (in context) appropriate. This is not to say that
content creators cannot *also* provide contextual help in the 'footer' of each e-pub document if desired, only that it would not be mandated to do so.

Thoughts?

JF

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 12:06 PM Bruce Bailey <Bailey@access-board.gov<mailto:Bailey@access-board.gov>> wrote:

Thanks Alastair for kicking off this discussion.  CC’ing John Foliot since he has some strong opinions about this.  CC’ing Shawn Lauriat because he has articulated how our current definition of web page does not stand up to technical scrutiny.



Forgive me, but I will remind folks that in 2006 the WG though we needed a new term, “web unit”.  The good old bad old days!

www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-WCAG20-20060427/appendixA.html#webunitdef<http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-WCAG20-20060427/appendixA.html#webunitdef>



Can we agree that there is a certain amount of hand waving required with our current definition of web page?



I agree that a typical PDF file is a web page.

I agree that a PDF collection could be posted in a way that it is a set of web pages.  I pretty confident we can agree it is not typical.  For this discussion, I would really rather we not spend cycles talking about PDFs.



I disagree that posting a .zip file (or similar archive of a collection) has any meaningful implication to our discussion of web page or set of web pages.  Yes, files posted online have a URI.  Not every URI is a web page!



If one archives a set of web pages into a single zip file (and posts the zip online), it would be nonsensical to assert that the URI is now a web page and no longer a set of web pages.



I am arguing that we make the same common sense leap for ePub and WCAG 2.2.  A typical ePub, posted online as a zip file, is a set of web pages, full stop.



I admit that my argument is not in the shape of good formal logic.  I would ask that anyone who disagrees (than an ePub is a set of web pages) make a recommendation to how our definition of web page and set of web page might be tweaked (so that they would agree that an ePub meets their modified definition for set of web pages).





From: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 11:42 AM
To: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>; Bruce Bailey <Bailey@Access-Board.gov>
Cc: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: Collections of web pages



Hi Andrew, Bruce & everyone,



During the discussion of two criteria (at least), the concept of “set of web pages” came up as a key point.



  *   Findable help: Including ‘set of web pages’ helps to scope-out the very simple one-page websites and PDFs that are less likely to have human contact details.
  *   Fixed reference points: It says “a web page or set of web pages" so that it covers ePub and non-ePub files .



Andrew mentioned that long PDFs could be considered a ‘set of web pages’, and that some PDFs techniques mention that.



As far as I can tell from our definition for a web page<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FWCAG21%2F%23dfn-web-page-s&data=02%7C01%7CBailey%40access-board.gov%7Cc6d89b46797f49213b0808d7dbd36f2d%7Cfc6093f5e55e4f93b2cf26d0822201c9%7C0%7C0%7C637219573475002609&sdata=gHYOWONUhzMRcA04Vv1eJhLF1DSlhV93bdnPX6QIfnA%3D&reserved=0> and set of web pages<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FWCAG21%2F%23dfn-set-of-web-pages&data=02%7C01%7CBailey%40access-board.gov%7Cc6d89b46797f49213b0808d7dbd36f2d%7Cfc6093f5e55e4f93b2cf26d0822201c9%7C0%7C0%7C637219573475012600&sdata=yFqJ7fz4UUlIGWgKiP%2F3wSjXdWjAUavo%2F3lEdu%2B7xHI%3D&reserved=0>, all of these would be considered a ‘web page’ as they are located at a single URI:

  *   A PDF;
  *   An ePub document;
  *   A ‘single page app’, unless it adjusts the URI & browser history to appear to have multiple pages.



I can’t see a reference to ‘set of web pages’ in the PDF techniques<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FWCAG20-TECHS%2Fpdf%23PDF2&data=02%7C01%7CBailey%40access-board.gov%7Cc6d89b46797f49213b0808d7dbd36f2d%7Cfc6093f5e55e4f93b2cf26d0822201c9%7C0%7C0%7C637219573475022599&sdata=l675wkH%2FdAOI%2BCs1gXjVqCzW%2FzcR%2FBdfolGwFJ96iNs%3D&reserved=0>, the closest is PDF2 but that doesn’t seem to reference the definition directly.



Can anyone see an issue with the uses of “set of web pages” in these two SCs?



Kind regards,



-Alastair



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www.nomensa.com<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nomensa.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7CBailey%40access-board.gov%7Cc6d89b46797f49213b0808d7dbd36f2d%7Cfc6093f5e55e4f93b2cf26d0822201c9%7C0%7C0%7C637219573475032595&sdata=DG90CpyZ1cu8b9ZXKK5ZbRRWtRJ4U5d%2FHjqqhuwLuVo%3D&reserved=0> / @alastc


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​John Foliot | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC Representative
Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
deque.com<http://deque.com/>


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