RE: CFC - Proposed definition for 'Programatic Notification'

  *   ​If we want to completely unpack this SC and try to rewrite for all types of other notifications, then I'd be interested to see that.​ But his SC as written has broad support everywhere I go.

I have AND continue to support the SC – I don’t support the definition of programmatic notification.


  *   " ...using methods that are supported by user agents, including assistive technologies..."
This is borrowed from programmatically determined
  *   ​, which is primarily about screen readers.​

I have no problems with  that text – people may have considered that it was primarily aimed at screen readers but it broadly applies beyond that.  Most of the people with disabilities on this planet are not using screen readers.


  *   I don't understand. The entire purpose of the definition is to allow aria-live to meet it.
  *   ​That's the intent of it.​

But it turns out the definition opens up Pandora’s box instead.

  *   ​If we want to completely unpack this SC and try to rewrite for all types of other notifications, then I'd be interested to see that.​ But his SC as written has broad support everywhere I go.
Let’s just fix the definition instead of throwing up a straw man.

What about something like “

Programmatic notification.

A notification that is programmatically determinable, does not solely rely communicating a relationship between the user action and the content change,  and does not require focus being moved to the change of content.

Example: a programmatically determinable property is used to communicate to a screen reader that the user’s shopping cart has been updated after they select an item for purchase.

Jonathan

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From: David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 4:04 PM
To: Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
Cc: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: Re: CFC - Proposed definition for 'Programatic Notification'

> Aria-live may solve that – but that’s not what the definition allows for.  The definition would allow for a speech API announcement only to pass.

I don't understand. The entire purpose of the definition is to allow aria-live to meet it.
​That's the intent of it.​

" ...using methods that are supported by user agents, including assistive technologies..."

This is borrowed from programmatically determined
​, which is primarily about screen readers.​

​If we want to completely unpack this SC and try to rewrite for all types of other notifications, then I'd be interested to see that.​ But his SC as written has broad support everywhere I go.




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On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:45 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> wrote:
The link in the CFC is going the the wrong SC. It is for Change of Content not Purpose of controls.

https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#purpose-of-controls


It should be
https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#change-of-content



I think we have to throw this CFC thread out and reissue it. It has caused terrible confusion.


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On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:25 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> wrote:
I seems that running this CFC definition when it is disassociated from the SC to which it applies has caused confusion.


>  @jonathanThe definition seems to allow for using the speech API in a browser to speak something.  This type of “announcement” may work for some users but doesn’t seem like a solution that works for different types of users with disabilities.  A programmatic notification should be something that could be converted into different formats – speech, braille, pop-up, vibration, etc.  If I am misunderstanding then I’d be happy to change my vote.

This SC is all about helping those screen reader users. It has been that from the beginning. It's a narrow and important  requirement
​ and it was approved on that basis​
.
​The main way of meeting it is using aria-live. I'm kind of surprised we're talking about widening the SC like this at this late date.

Widening
​ it ​to other types of notifications would be a real change to it and how would that be worded?

> @Steve
What is needed is a programmatic association given to the new content.

t
​hat's in the first bullet.

  *   There is a programmatically determined relationship between the new content and the control that triggers it;
​


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On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com<mailto:stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>> wrote:
-1
I agree with Jonathon, and would add that his point is enforced by saying “announced”, which is biased towards certain users.  It also uses “notification” in the definition which is a practice we should avoid.

Ultimately, I think the real solution here is to reword the SC to not use such a term.  “Programmatic notification” implies (and the definition doesn’t help) that content beyond the “change of content” is needed, but that is not the case.  What is needed is a programmatic association given to the new content.

I also find the shopping cart example confusing because it seems like that is exempt by being the result of a user action.

I’m sorry I missed reviewing this in detail on the survey.  This all needs further discussion in my opinion.

Steve

From: Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com<mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com>]
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 1:25 PM
To: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: CFC - Proposed definition for 'Programatic Notification'

-1.  The definition seems to allow for using the speech API in a browser to speak something.  This type of “announcement” may work for some users but doesn’t seem like a solution that works for different types of users with disabilities.  A programmatic notification should be something that could be converted into different formats – speech, braille, pop-up, vibration, etc.  If I am misunderstanding then I’d be happy to change my vote.

Jonathan

From: Joshue O Connor [mailto:josh@interaccess.ie]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 1:06 PM
To: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: CFC - Proposed definition for 'Programatic Notification'

Call For Consensus — ends Friday October 6th at 1:00pm Boston time.

The Working Group has a new proposed definition of "Programmatic Notification" as found in the Change of Content SC.
https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#purpose-of-controls


The DFN text is:

<dfn>
Programmatic notification.

Notification set by the content which can be announced to the user without virtual or actual focus, using methods that are supported by user agents, including assistive technologies.

Example: a screen reader announces to a user that their shopping cart has been updated after they select an item for purchase.
</dfn>

And can be viewed here: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/commit/b5c68e17f82feb0cdbbafc273f245b136a7445c4


This was discussed on todays call: https://www.w3.org/2017/10/03-ag-minutes.html#item09


This definition was previously missing from WCAG 2.1 and the proposal is to add it.

If you have concerns about this proposed consensus position that have not been discussed already and feel that those concerns result in you “not being able to live with” this decision, please let the group know before the CfC deadline.

Thanks
--
Joshue O Connor
Director | InterAccess.ie