Re: CFC - Proposed definition for 'Programatic Notification'

> Aria-live may solve that – but that’s not what the definition allows
for.  The definition would allow for a speech API announcement only to pass.

I don't understand. The entire purpose of the definition is to allow
aria-live to meet it.
​That's the intent of it.​

" ...using methods that are supported by user agents, including assistive
technologies..."

This is borrowed from programmatically determined
​, which is primarily about screen readers.​

​If we want to completely unpack this SC and try to rewrite for all types
of other notifications, then I'd be interested to see that.​ But his SC as
written has broad support everywhere I go.



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David MacDonald



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On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:45 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> The link in the CFC is going the the wrong SC. It is for Change of Content
> not Purpose of controls.
>
> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#purpose-of-controls
>
> It should be
> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#change-of-content
>
>
> I think we have to throw this CFC thread out and reissue it. It has caused
> terrible confusion.
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>
> LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
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>
> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>
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>
>
>
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> *            Including those with disabilities*
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> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:25 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> I seems that running this CFC definition when it is disassociated from
>> the SC to which it applies has caused confusion.
>>
>>
>> >  @jonathanThe definition seems to allow for using the speech API in a
>> browser to speak something.  This type of “announcement” may work for some
>> users but doesn’t seem like a solution that works for different types of
>> users with disabilities.  A programmatic notification should be something
>> that could be converted into different formats – speech, braille, pop-up,
>> vibration, etc.  If I am misunderstanding then I’d be happy to change my
>> vote.
>>
>> This SC is all about helping those screen reader users. It has been that
>> from the beginning. It's a narrow and important  requirement
>> ​ and it was approved on that basis​
>> .
>> ​The main way of meeting it is using aria-live. I'm kind of surprised
>> we're talking about widening the SC like this at this late date.
>>
>> Widening
>> ​ it ​to other types of notifications would be a real change to it and
>> how would that be worded?
>>
>> > @Steve
>> What is needed is a programmatic association given to the new content.
>>
>> t
>> ​hat's in the first bullet.
>>
>>    - There is a programmatically determined relationship between the new
>>    content and the control that triggers it;
>>
>> ​
>>
>> Cheers,
>> David MacDonald
>>
>>
>>
>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>
>> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>>
>> LinkedIn
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>
>> twitter.com/davidmacd
>>
>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>>
>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>>
>>
>>
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>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>
>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Repsher, Stephen J <
>> stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:
>>
>>> -1
>>>
>>> I agree with Jonathon, and would add that his point is enforced by
>>> saying “announced”, which is biased towards certain users.  It also uses
>>> “notification” in the definition which is a practice we should avoid.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ultimately, I think the real solution here is to reword the SC to not
>>> use such a term.  “Programmatic notification” implies (and the definition
>>> doesn’t help) that content beyond the “change of content” is needed, but
>>> that is not the case.  What is needed is a programmatic association given
>>> to the new content.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I also find the shopping cart example confusing because it seems like
>>> that is exempt by being the result of a user action.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’m sorry I missed reviewing this in detail on the survey.  This all
>>> needs further discussion in my opinion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 03, 2017 1:25 PM
>>> *To:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>>> *Subject:* RE: CFC - Proposed definition for 'Programatic Notification'
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -1.  The definition seems to allow for using the speech API in a browser
>>> to speak something.  This type of “announcement” may work for some users
>>> but doesn’t seem like a solution that works for different types of users
>>> with disabilities.  A programmatic notification should be something that
>>> could be converted into different formats – speech, braille, pop-up,
>>> vibration, etc.  If I am misunderstanding then I’d be happy to change my
>>> vote.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Joshue O Connor [mailto:josh@interaccess.ie
>>> <josh@interaccess.ie>]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 3, 2017 1:06 PM
>>> *To:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>>> *Subject:* CFC - Proposed definition for 'Programatic Notification'
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Call For Consensus — ends Friday October 6th at 1:00pm Boston time.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The Working Group has a new proposed definition of "Programmatic
>>> Notification" as found in the Change of Content SC.
>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#purpose-of-controls
>>>
>>> The DFN text is:
>>>
>>> <dfn>
>>> Programmatic notification.
>>>
>>> Notification set by the content which can be announced to the user
>>> without virtual or actual focus, using methods that are supported by user
>>> agents, including assistive technologies.
>>>
>>> Example: a screen reader announces to a user that their shopping cart
>>> has been updated after they select an item for purchase.
>>> </dfn>
>>>
>>> And can be viewed here: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/
>>> commit/b5c68e17f82feb0cdbbafc273f245b136a7445c4
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This was discussed on todays call: https://www.w3.org/2017/10/03-
>>> ag-minutes.html#item09
>>>
>>> This definition was previously missing from WCAG 2.1 and the proposal is
>>> to add it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you have concerns about this proposed consensus position that have
>>> not been discussed already and feel that those concerns result in you “not
>>> being able to live with” this decision, please let the group know before
>>> the CfC deadline.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> --
>>> Joshue O Connor
>>> Director *| InterAccess.ie *
>>>
>>
>>
>