- From: White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
- Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2017 20:21:00 +0000
- To: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>, "Repsher, Stephen J" <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
- CC: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <BN6PR07MB3457EC21E3319AB2B78625A3AB720@BN6PR07MB3457.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Suppose we changed the proposal:
“Notification set by the content which can be announced to the user without virtual or actual focus, using methods that are supported by user agents, including assistive technologies.”
As follows:
“Notification set by the content, via methods that are supported by user agents, including assistive technologies. The notification can be presented to the user irrespective of which user interface component, if any, has virtual or actual focus.”
We could alternatively use the term “point of regard” in the second sentence, but we don’t define or employ that term in WCAG currently, and it seems unnecessary to add it just for the purpose of this definition.
So, if we rewrote it along the above lines, would this avoid the interpretation whereby use of the Web Speech API could satisfy the definition?
From: David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 4:04 PM
To: Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
Cc: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: Re: CFC - Proposed definition for 'Programatic Notification'
> Aria-live may solve that – but that’s not what the definition allows for. The definition would allow for a speech API announcement only to pass.
I don't understand. The entire purpose of the definition is to allow aria-live to meet it.
That's the intent of it.
" ...using methods that are supported by user agents, including assistive technologies..."
This is borrowed from programmatically determined
, which is primarily about screen readers.
If we want to completely unpack this SC and try to rewrite for all types of other notifications, then I'd be interested to see that. But his SC as written has broad support everywhere I go.
Cheers,
David MacDonald
CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel: 613.235.4902
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On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:45 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> wrote:
The link in the CFC is going the the wrong SC. It is for Change of Content not Purpose of controls.
https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#purpose-of-controls<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FWCAG21%2F%23purpose-of-controls&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7C53e171aa33a64bcb022908d50a9a16fa%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636426579285001140&sdata=zQAQ2Llxp01X0KsPsYdLiw4fWVc72j6ffGqFQHn20AQ%3D&reserved=0>
It should be
https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#change-of-content<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FWCAG21%2F%23change-of-content&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7C53e171aa33a64bcb022908d50a9a16fa%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636426579285001140&sdata=o8kqIpOm9%2BIXwBGDm3vprCLpSvoSSZVDESgP4aWFNBI%3D&reserved=0>
I think we have to throw this CFC thread out and reissue it. It has caused terrible confusion.
Cheers,
David MacDonald
CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel: 613.235.4902<tel:(613)%20235-4902>
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On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:25 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> wrote:
I seems that running this CFC definition when it is disassociated from the SC to which it applies has caused confusion.
> @jonathanThe definition seems to allow for using the speech API in a browser to speak something. This type of “announcement” may work for some users but doesn’t seem like a solution that works for different types of users with disabilities. A programmatic notification should be something that could be converted into different formats – speech, braille, pop-up, vibration, etc. If I am misunderstanding then I’d be happy to change my vote.
This SC is all about helping those screen reader users. It has been that from the beginning. It's a narrow and important requirement
and it was approved on that basis
.
The main way of meeting it is using aria-live. I'm kind of surprised we're talking about widening the SC like this at this late date.
Widening
it to other types of notifications would be a real change to it and how would that be worded?
> @Steve
What is needed is a programmatic association given to the new content.
t
hat's in the first bullet.
* There is a programmatically determined relationship between the new content and the control that triggers it;
Cheers,
David MacDonald
CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
Tel: 613.235.4902<tel:(613)%20235-4902>
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On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com<mailto:stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>> wrote:
-1
I agree with Jonathon, and would add that his point is enforced by saying “announced”, which is biased towards certain users. It also uses “notification” in the definition which is a practice we should avoid.
Ultimately, I think the real solution here is to reword the SC to not use such a term. “Programmatic notification” implies (and the definition doesn’t help) that content beyond the “change of content” is needed, but that is not the case. What is needed is a programmatic association given to the new content.
I also find the shopping cart example confusing because it seems like that is exempt by being the result of a user action.
I’m sorry I missed reviewing this in detail on the survey. This all needs further discussion in my opinion.
Steve
From: Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com<mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com>]
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 1:25 PM
To: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: CFC - Proposed definition for 'Programatic Notification'
-1. The definition seems to allow for using the speech API in a browser to speak something. This type of “announcement” may work for some users but doesn’t seem like a solution that works for different types of users with disabilities. A programmatic notification should be something that could be converted into different formats – speech, braille, pop-up, vibration, etc. If I am misunderstanding then I’d be happy to change my vote.
Jonathan
From: Joshue O Connor [mailto:josh@interaccess.ie]
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 1:06 PM
To: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: CFC - Proposed definition for 'Programatic Notification'
Call For Consensus — ends Friday October 6th at 1:00pm Boston time.
The Working Group has a new proposed definition of "Programmatic Notification" as found in the Change of Content SC.
https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#purpose-of-controls<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FWCAG21%2F%23purpose-of-controls&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7C53e171aa33a64bcb022908d50a9a16fa%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636426579285001140&sdata=zQAQ2Llxp01X0KsPsYdLiw4fWVc72j6ffGqFQHn20AQ%3D&reserved=0>
The DFN text is:
<dfn>
Programmatic notification.
Notification set by the content which can be announced to the user without virtual or actual focus, using methods that are supported by user agents, including assistive technologies.
Example: a screen reader announces to a user that their shopping cart has been updated after they select an item for purchase.
</dfn>
And can be viewed here: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/commit/b5c68e17f82feb0cdbbafc273f245b136a7445c4<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2Fcommit%2Fb5c68e17f82feb0cdbbafc273f245b136a7445c4&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7C53e171aa33a64bcb022908d50a9a16fa%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636426579285001140&sdata=%2BBYbIWuwlRbhMJrD0AB7dMKQ1fFn9S3pB0SWRh6mAOc%3D&reserved=0>
This was discussed on todays call: https://www.w3.org/2017/10/03-ag-minutes.html#item09<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2017%2F10%2F03-ag-minutes.html%23item09&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7C53e171aa33a64bcb022908d50a9a16fa%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636426579285001140&sdata=7ka0Mh1o9Kbc4apYmx3Rhomj59ohAVg9KQ0l4IblVec%3D&reserved=0>
This definition was previously missing from WCAG 2.1 and the proposal is to add it.
If you have concerns about this proposed consensus position that have not been discussed already and feel that those concerns result in you “not being able to live with” this decision, please let the group know before the CfC deadline.
Thanks
--
Joshue O Connor
Director | InterAccess.ie
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Received on Tuesday, 3 October 2017 20:21:27 UTC