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RE: Can we put "help and support" into the wcag draft

From: White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 16:58:30 +0000
To: Detlev Fischer <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>, "lisa.seeman@zoho.com" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>
CC: "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <BN6PR07MB34577F4DC4C1F0DEA9458D8AABC20@BN6PR07MB3457.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
+1 to Detlev's comments. A further difficulty (noted, if I recall correctly, in my survey response) is that the scope of the exceptions is both unclear and sufficiently wide to raise doubts about the effectiveness of the proposal in improving accessibility.

It's too early to draw such conclusions yet, but we may ultimately have to accept the view that little additional support can be provided to meet the needs of users with learning and cognitive disabilities without a more fundamental rethinking of the design of WCAG 2.0. This wouldn't be the first time that this has happened. The system of "priorities" established in WCAG 1.0 was abandoned because its criterion of impact on accessibility couldn't properly take into account the needs of people with cognitive disabilities (which, it should be borne in mind, may occur in addition to other disabilities that an individual may have). WCAG 2.0 didn't, in the end, develop a satisfactory substitute for the WCAG 1.0 priority definitions. It was, as I remember, the issue of cognitive disability that ultimately convinced me, Charles McCathieNevile and probably other then contributors to the WCAG effort that the 1.0 priority scheme was untenable.

Maybe learning and cognitive disabilities will again require us to reconsider the specification in a more fundamental way that can be achieved in an extension such as WCAG 2.1. Fitting good design practices, as reflected in many of the proposals, within the strictures of WCAG 2 is hard. There's no guarantee that it can be done in a way that provides real and significant value to users with disabilities - especially those with learning and cognitive disabilities.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Detlev Fischer [mailto:detlev.fischer@testkreis.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 10:45 AM
> To: lisa.seeman@zoho.com
> Cc: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Can we put "help and support" into the wcag draft
>
> Hi Lisa,
>
> I think most of the issues pointed out in the issue 32 SC comments on github and
> in the survey remain unresolved.
>
> As I have mentioned in my reply, this SC can leed to situations where
> 'improvements' meet the SC on the surface level but are not really helpful or do
> not solve the actual cognitive problem.
>
> Then there is still a host of unclear definitions / concepts, e.g.:
>
> * What qualifies as 'instruction' (for non-standard controls)? Is a meaningful
> label a sufficient instruction (it often might be) or does int require something
> extra?
> * Does a custom control marked up correctly with ARIA count as 'standard'? (see
> Jake Abma's and Gregg's comments)
> * Does a native control with strange label (Gregg's example) count as non-
> standard?
> * What should authors make of 'real numbers' (see James Nurthen's and Steve
> Repsher's comments on Github)
>
> There is probably more but I stop here.
>
> And as I already pointed out in the survey, I still feel that many of the demands in
> here are already covered under other SCs and therefore overlap in unclear ways
> with these SCs:
>
> - non-standard controls: overlaps with SC "3.3.2 Labels or Instructions" and SCs
> 1.3.1 "Info and Relationships" and  "4.1.2 Role, Name, Value"
> - multi-step forms: seems in principle already covered by SC "2.4.8 Location"
> (again, I think this should be raised to level AA)
>
> Long blocks of text:
> - are divided... overlaps partly with 2.4.10 Section Headings
> - a summary is provided: overlaps somewhat with 3.1.5 Reading Level,
> supplemental content
>
> Detlev
>
> --
> Detlev Fischer
> testkreis c/o feld.wald.wiese
> Thedestr. 2, 22767 Hamburg
>
> Mobil +49 (0)157 57 57 57 45
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> rved=0
> Beratung, Tests und Schulungen für barrierefreie Websites
>
> lisa.seeman schrieb am 12.06.2017 16:02:
>
> > Hi Folks
> >
> >
> > we have no idea if we should continue with "help and support" SC or move on
> to accessible authentication
> >
> >
> > Can everyone please let us know where you stand with this SC?
> >
> >
> > Can you update your response on
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.
> org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F35422%2FCOGA_help%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjj
> white%40ets.org%7Cd80bef423c994c4bbe0e08d4b26af2de%7C0ba6e9b760b34
> fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636329619792524601&sdata=sU%2FvWd
> biXrssH2CuvJXQ8p%2BhNWULMso03Wm5UZC9YhU%3D&reserved=0
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3
> .org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F35422%2FCOGA_help%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjj
> white%40ets.org%7Cd80bef423c994c4bbe0e08d4b26af2de%7C0ba6e9b760b34
> fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636329619792524601&sdata=sU%2FvWd
> biXrssH2CuvJXQ8p%2BhNWULMso03Wm5UZC9YhU%3D&reserved=0>  or just
> resond to this email
> >
> >
> > please let us know what important issues you feel are left with the current
> wording at
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.co
> m%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2Fissues%2F32&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%
> 7Cd80bef423c994c4bbe0e08d4b26af2de%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9
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> PRyPjsk78M0idWFsZg%3D&reserved=0
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.c
> om%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2Fissues%2F32&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org
> %7Cd80bef423c994c4bbe0e08d4b26af2de%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9
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> QexPRyPjsk78M0idWFsZg%3D&reserved=0> . do you feel it is close?
> >
> >
> > All the best
> >
> > Lisa Seeman
> >
> > LinkedIn
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fil.linkedin
> .com%2Fin%2Flisaseeman%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cd80be
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> 2AOqakmu3ZojAjQ%3D&reserved=0> , Twitter
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> m%2F2ZM%3D&reserved=0>
> >
> >
> > ---- On Thu, 08 Jun 2017 20:46:58 +0300 lisa.seeman<lisa.seeman@zoho.com>
> wrote ----
> >
> >>
> >> Hi Folks
> >>
> >>
> >> Most people had left before we managed to redo the survey on today's call/
> >>
> >>
> >> It seemed that we have addressed most the issues at:
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.co
> m%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2Fissues%2F32&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%
> 7Cd80bef423c994c4bbe0e08d4b26af2de%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9
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> PRyPjsk78M0idWFsZg%3D&reserved=0
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.c
> om%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2Fissues%2F32&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org
> %7Cd80bef423c994c4bbe0e08d4b26af2de%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9
> e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636329619792524601&sdata=qu4YmqJGy0bAiKVC8gJhfG
> QexPRyPjsk78M0idWFsZg%3D&reserved=0>
> >>
> >>
> >> Can you give a +1 if you are ok putting it in as is into the draft (and a -1 if you
> have a show stopping issue with it). We can divide it up (if the groups wants) and
> make small language changes after August. However we really need to move on
> to the next SC.
> >>
> >>
> >> All the best
> >>
> >> Lisa Seeman
> >>
> >> LinkedIn
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fil.linkedin
> .com%2Fin%2Flisaseeman%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cd80be
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> 0%7C0%7C636329619792524601&sdata=KMp7iaZthEwYkkLXmXI%2By0AvuOL1
> 2AOqakmu3ZojAjQ%3D&reserved=0> , Twitter
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> om%2FSeemanLisa&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cd80bef423c994c4
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> >>
> >>
>


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Received on Tuesday, 13 June 2017 16:59:10 UTC

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