Re: Re[7]: Thoughts on pull request?

Excellent discussion to which I would like to add the concept of
parachuting. A person enters a site via an email link that lands them on a
page within the site (or on top of a mountain in a range of mountains if
you like.) In this scenario the concept of "Where am I?" is unrelated to
how I arrived at where I am within the context of the site.

I too am working with the COGA TF and recognize an important need to help
people comprehend where they are in a site. The "You are here" suggestion
would help someone orient themselves if they parachuted into a site or
simply lost track of where they are.

On the other hand, if the person did navigate their way to a place within a
site, how they arrived there can also be helpful information. It is not the
same as knowing where they are (a dot on a map or classic arrow pointing to
a place on a map with the common "You are here" label.) Breadcrumb
information is more like a line on a map showing how one arrived at (or
could have arrived at) the dot. There may be several ways to draw that line
between two points on a map.

Can one label convey both the "You are here" and "This is how you got here"
bits of information? Additionally, if the person was parachuted into a page
with a breadcrumb, the breadcrumb does not accurately reflect how they
arrived there, It can show one way to get there from a common starting
point or the way to get to "Home". In this use case the breadcrumb is more
like a local map or a simple set of directions.

The word 'directions' implies starting and ending points. Breadcrumbs have
starting and ending points. The problem with this word as a label is that
it provides no sense of what the directions are for. Any given site's
breadcrumb may lead someone to the top level for a section of the site or
to the home page. Nonetheless, a breadcrumb does provide directions to
somewhere as well as providing the "You are here" bit of information.

I'm not suggesting that "directions" is the best word to label a breadcrumb
feature. I am only looking to point out the difference between the "You are
here" and "a path to here" bits of information communicated by a
breadcrumb.

Lastly, if usability studies indicate that people do not understand or
rarely use breadcrumbs, are we trying to find a label to address the
usability problem? Perhaps that is asking too much from a label.

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 6:14 AM, josh@interaccess.ie <josh@interaccess.ie>
wrote:

>
> Using something like 'Where am I?' as a label for this would suffice.
>>> Not as snappy as Site map.. It's acronym/initialism would be 'WAI' ;-)
>>>
>> Its increasingly looking as if "Where am I?" seems to be the best
>> proposal for what I think is a useful function.
>>
>> I am working in the COGA TF and having something that tells you where you
>> are and how you got there is likely to be helpful to some of the users we
>> are interested in.
>>
>
> Great stuff Mike - sounds good.
>
> Josh
>
>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Josh
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Mike Pluke
>>>> Castle Consulting Ltd.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: josh@interaccess.ie [mailto:josh@interaccess.ie]
>>>> Sent: 12 January 2016 10:38
>>>> To: Sarah Horton <shorton@paciellogroup.com>; Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>> <akirkpat@adobe.com>
>>>> Cc: Srinivasu Chakravarthula <srinivasu.chakravarthula@deque.com>;
>>>> Paul J. Adam <paul.adam@deque.com>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>>>> Subject: Re[2]: Thoughts on pull request?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I did a usability study of a site that used the value “breadcrumb” to
>>>>> label a nav element and screen reader users didn’t recognize it as an
>>>>> interface element. [...] no one used it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Very interesting Sarah. We get lost in our own jargon. IMO, these
>>>> things are 'mini maps'. You could even say they actually are 'Site
>>>> maps' in the truest sense, as they give you your location in context.
>>>>
>>>> The convention is for a Site map to be in a dedicated link, writ large
>>>> with 'Site Map' - I wonder how useful that is these days.
>>>>
>>>> As a thought experiment, if we image the term 'Site map' used for
>>>> these regions, with some annotated label added to the 'active' page
>>>> saying 'You are here' that would need no explanation at all.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to see the term 'Site map' used here - should we reclaim it?
>>>> It makes sense, as maps are things that are used within context. If
>>>> I'm up a mountain I don't want to have to go home, to get the map to
>>>> find out where I am. So why do we ask users to effectively do this
>>>> online?
>>>>
>>>> So the question is, should we try to change this convention or create
>>>> a new UI name?
>>>>
>>>> Interesting thread :-)
>>>>
>>>> Josh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The visible “You are here” is a great label, and I agree with Paul
>>>>> that the best approach would be to use the visible label to provide a
>>>>> programmatic label for the element.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Sarah
>>>>>
>>>>> Sarah Horton
>>>>> UX Strategy Lead
>>>>> The Paciello Group
>>>>> 603 252-6052 mobile
>>>>>
>>>>>    On Jan 11, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>>>> <akirkpat@adobe.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    It looks like the label was added in response to the suggestion
>>>>>> that there might be more than one navigation on a page and the label
>>>>>> would help differentiate them for the user:
>>>>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2015JulSep/0194.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    I’m happy to remove it as I wouldn’t fail a page for not having
>>>>>> the aria-label, and I’m happy keeping it as I also wouldn’t fail a
>>>>>> page for using “breadcrumbs” or “location”.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Thanks,
>>>>>>    AWK
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>>>>    Group Product Manager, Accessibility  Adobe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    akirkpat@adobe.com
>>>>>>    http://twitter.com/awkawk
>>>>>>    http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    From: Srinivasu Chakravarthula
>>>>>> <srinivasu.chakravarthula@deque.com>
>>>>>>    Date: Monday, January 11, 2016 at 10:57
>>>>>>    To: "paul.adam@deque.com" <paul.adam@deque.com>
>>>>>>    Cc: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, WCAG
>>>>>>   <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>>>>>>    Subject: Re: Thoughts on pull request?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Yes, if at all needed, using aria-labelledby would be a good idea.
>>>>>>    Thanks,
>>>>>>    Srini
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Srinivasu Chakravarthula
>>>>>>    Sr. Accessibility Consultant, Deque
>>>>>>    Hand phone: +91 709 380 3855
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Deque University | Follow me on Twitter | Connect on LinkedIn |
>>>>>> About Me
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Technology is a gift to everyone; let's create inclusive digital
>>>>>> experience
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Paul J. Adam
>>>>>> <paul.adam@deque.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    How about “Current Page” ? :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    I do agree there’s no need for an aria-label or a better idea
>>>>>>> would be to use aria-labelledby and point to the ID of the “you are
>>>>>>> here”
>>>>>>> string.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Paul J. Adam
>>>>>>>    Accessibility Evangelist
>>>>>>>    www.deque.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    On Jan 11, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Srinivasu Chakravarthula
>>>>>>>> <srinivasu.chakravarthula@deque.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Hello Andrew et al,
>>>>>>>>    I am not sure if there is a real need for a label here when
>>>>>>>> there is already info stating "You are here" which is more
>>>>>>>> meaningful than "breadcrumb" or "location".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    I agree with Josh that location in general means to a
>>>>>>>> geographical location and that's what users would assume specially
>>>>>>>> there is a lot of location use in apps today. So even "Current
>>>>>>>> location" as suggested by my friend Paul would also be confusing.
>>>>>>>> Sorry Paul...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Thanks,
>>>>>>>>    Srini
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Best regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Srinivasu Chakravarthula
>>>>>>>>    Sr. Accessibility Consultant, Deque  Hand phone: +91 709 380
>>>>>>>> 3855
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Deque University | Follow me on Twitter | Connect on LinkedIn |
>>>>>>>> About Me
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Technology is a gift to everyone; let's create inclusive
>>>>>>>> digital experience
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Paul J. Adam
>>>>>>>> <paul.adam@deque.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    I would say something like “Current Location”.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    I don’t think that “Breadcrumbs” is a plain language term that
>>>>>>>>> non-developer folks know what it means in terms of a web site.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    Paul J. Adam
>>>>>>>>>    Accessibility Evangelist
>>>>>>>>>    www.deque.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    On Jan 11, 2016, at 7:58 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>>>>>>>> <akirkpat@adobe.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    I think that this may we be editorial, but what do people
>>>>>>>>>> think – is “location” better than “breadcrumbs” in this example?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/142/files?diff=split
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>    AWK
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>>>>>>>>    Group Product Manager, Accessibility  Adobe
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    akirkpat@adobe.com
>>>>>>>>>>    http://twitter.com/awkawk
>>>>>>>>>>    http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>


-- 
Regards,
Kurt Mattes
Senior Accessibility Consultant - Deque Systems
610-368-1539