Re: Re[7]: Thoughts on pull request?

My suggestion is to use "You are here" as an aria-label for the nav element. People seeing it on the page will recognize it as a breadcrumb trail (even if they don't know the term) and don't need additional information, and "You are here" will provide context to persons using a screen reader who are unable to see it.
"Breadcrumb" and "Breadcrumb trail" are designer and developer jargon.
Mike
 

    On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 9:24 AM, Kurt Mattes <kurt.mattes@deque.com> wrote:
 

 Excellent discussion to which I would like to add the concept of parachuting. A person enters a site via an email link that lands them on a page within the site (or on top of a mountain in a range of mountains if you like.) In this scenario the concept of "Where am I?" is unrelated to how I arrived at where I am within the context of the site. 
I too am working with the COGA TF and recognize an important need to help people comprehend where they are in a site. The "You are here" suggestion would help someone orient themselves if they parachuted into a site or simply lost track of where they are. 
On the other hand, if the person did navigate their way to a place within a site, how they arrived there can also be helpful information. It is not the same as knowing where they are (a dot on a map or classic arrow pointing to a place on a map with the common "You are here" label.) Breadcrumb information is more like a line on a map showing how one arrived at (or could have arrived at) the dot. There may be several ways to draw that line between two points on a map. 
Can one label convey both the "You are here" and "This is how you got here" bits of information? Additionally, if the person was parachuted into a page with a breadcrumb, the breadcrumb does not accurately reflect how they arrived there, It can show one way to get there from a common starting point or the way to get to "Home". In this use case the breadcrumb is more like a local map or a simple set of directions. 
The word 'directions' implies starting and ending points. Breadcrumbs have starting and ending points. The problem with this word as a label is that it provides no sense of what the directions are for. Any given site's breadcrumb may lead someone to the top level for a section of the site or to the home page. Nonetheless, a breadcrumb does provide directions to somewhere as well as providing the "You are here" bit of information. 
I'm not suggesting that "directions" is the best word to label a breadcrumb feature. I am only looking to point out the difference between the "You are here" and "a path to here" bits of information communicated by a breadcrumb. 
Lastly, if usability studies indicate that people do not understand or rarely use breadcrumbs, are we trying to find a label to address the usability problem? Perhaps that is asking too much from a label. 
On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 6:14 AM, josh@interaccess.ie <josh@interaccess.ie> wrote:




Using something like 'Where am I?' as a label for this would suffice.
Not as snappy as Site map.. It's acronym/initialism would be 'WAI' ;-)

Its increasingly looking as if "Where am I?" seems to be the best proposal for what I think is a useful function.

I am working in the COGA TF and having something that tells you where you are and how you got there is likely to be helpful to some of the users we are interested in.


Great stuff Mike - sounds good.

Josh


Best regards

Mike




Thanks

Josh


Best regards,

Mike Pluke
Castle Consulting Ltd.

-----Original Message-----
From: josh@interaccess.ie [mailto:josh@interaccess.ie]
Sent: 12 January 2016 10:38
To: Sarah Horton <shorton@paciellogroup.com>; Andrew Kirkpatrick
<akirkpat@adobe.com>
Cc: Srinivasu Chakravarthula <srinivasu.chakravarthula@deque.com>;
Paul J. Adam <paul.adam@deque.com>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: Re[2]: Thoughts on pull request?




I did a usability study of a site that used the value “breadcrumb” to
label a nav element and screen reader users didn’t recognize it as an
interface element. [...] no one used it.


Very interesting Sarah. We get lost in our own jargon. IMO, these
things are 'mini maps'. You could even say they actually are 'Site
maps' in the truest sense, as they give you your location in context.

The convention is for a Site map to be in a dedicated link, writ large
with 'Site Map' - I wonder how useful that is these days.

As a thought experiment, if we image the term 'Site map' used for
these regions, with some annotated label added to the 'active' page
saying 'You are here' that would need no explanation at all.

I'd like to see the term 'Site map' used here - should we reclaim it?
It makes sense, as maps are things that are used within context. If
I'm up a mountain I don't want to have to go home, to get the map to
find out where I am. So why do we ask users to effectively do this
online?

So the question is, should we try to change this convention or create
a new UI name?

Interesting thread :-)

Josh




The visible “You are here” is a great label, and I agree with Paul
that the best approach would be to use the visible label to provide a
programmatic label for the element.

Best,
Sarah

Sarah Horton
UX Strategy Lead
The Paciello Group
603 252-6052 mobile


   On Jan 11, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick
<akirkpat@adobe.com>
wrote:

   It looks like the label was added in response to the suggestion
that there might be more than one navigation on a page and the label
would help differentiate them for the user:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2015JulSep/0194.html

   I’m happy to remove it as I wouldn’t fail a page for not having
the aria-label, and I’m happy keeping it as I also wouldn’t fail a
page for using “breadcrumbs” or “location”.

   Thanks,
   AWK

   Andrew Kirkpatrick
   Group Product Manager, Accessibility  Adobe

   akirkpat@adobe.com
   http://twitter.com/awkawk
   http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility

   From: Srinivasu Chakravarthula
<srinivasu.chakravarthula@deque.com>
   Date: Monday, January 11, 2016 at 10:57
   To: "paul.adam@deque.com" <paul.adam@deque.com>
   Cc: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, WCAG
  <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
   Subject: Re: Thoughts on pull request?

   Yes, if at all needed, using aria-labelledby would be a good idea.
   Thanks,
   Srini

   Best regards,

   Srinivasu Chakravarthula
   Sr. Accessibility Consultant, Deque
   Hand phone: +91 709 380 3855

   Deque University | Follow me on Twitter | Connect on LinkedIn |
About Me

   Technology is a gift to everyone; let's create inclusive digital
experience

   On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Paul J. Adam
<paul.adam@deque.com>
wrote:

   How about “Current Page” ? :)

   I do agree there’s no need for an aria-label or a better idea
would be to use aria-labelledby and point to the ID of the “you are
here”
string.

   Paul J. Adam
   Accessibility Evangelist
   www.deque.com


   On Jan 11, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Srinivasu Chakravarthula
<srinivasu.chakravarthula@deque.com> wrote:

   Hello Andrew et al,
   I am not sure if there is a real need for a label here when
there is already info stating "You are here" which is more
meaningful than "breadcrumb" or "location".

   I agree with Josh that location in general means to a
geographical location and that's what users would assume specially
there is a lot of location use in apps today. So even "Current
location" as suggested by my friend Paul would also be confusing.
Sorry Paul...

   Thanks,
   Srini

   Best regards,

   Srinivasu Chakravarthula
   Sr. Accessibility Consultant, Deque  Hand phone: +91 709 380
3855

   Deque University | Follow me on Twitter | Connect on LinkedIn |
About Me

   Technology is a gift to everyone; let's create inclusive
digital experience

   On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Paul J. Adam
<paul.adam@deque.com>
wrote:

   I would say something like “Current Location”.

   I don’t think that “Breadcrumbs” is a plain language term that
non-developer folks know what it means in terms of a web site.

   Paul J. Adam
   Accessibility Evangelist
   www.deque.com


   On Jan 11, 2016, at 7:58 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick
<akirkpat@adobe.com> wrote:

   I think that this may we be editorial, but what do people
think – is “location” better than “breadcrumbs” in this example?

   https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/142/files?diff=split

   Thanks,
   AWK

   Andrew Kirkpatrick
   Group Product Manager, Accessibility  Adobe

   akirkpat@adobe.com
   http://twitter.com/awkawk
   http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility


























-- 
Regards,
Kurt MattesSenior Accessibility Consultant - Deque Systems
610-368-1539