- From: lisa seeman <seeman@netvision.net.il>
- Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 09:10:55 +0200
- To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Joe, the suggestion was to provide translations for words that are not in the main natural language of the page. I think most of your other points are equally true for Alt tags and captioning. All the best Lisa Seeman Visit us at the UB Access website UB Access - Moving internet accessibility > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles McCathieNevile [mailto:charles@w3.org] > Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 5:22 AM > To: Jens Meiert > Cc: mikba@microsoft.com; seeman@netvision.net.il; > y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org > Subject: RE: simple language testable thing > > > On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Jens Meiert wrote: > > >> [...] that "bon mot" is an english phrase in the > >> rich english of literature (or the literary english of the rich, > >> perhaps). > > > >Sorry, but hear ye! And hence, foreign language use is okay? Sounds > >like there are double standards applied; I think there must be a > >precise statement first, otherwise, we're all just spinning around. > > > >> But it isn't simple vocabulary one can expect of everyone. > > > >Is there any vocabulary you can? Ain't it in the nature of language, > >that there are blendings, differences, growth etc.? If I'd > be asked to > >use the vocabulary all my friends or colleagues do, I simply > wouldn't > >know. > > What if we asked you to find a glossary of terms they do know > (say, your old illustrated primary school dictionary) and > another one, with words you use, that links to explanations > which only use the words that are in teh primary school dictionary? > > >> I think the solution technique is the same as for complex > vocabulary > >> [...] > >> > >> ... use of a foreign <a href="http://example.com/k-7glossary? > >> bon_mot">bon mot</a>, even though... > > > >That nips all more or less sophisticated writing in the bud, > ain't it? > >[...] > > If you mean "a presentation relying on sophistry to carry an > air of authority", I am not sure that's a bad thing. But I > don't think that is actually the case. A lot of clever > advertising isn't actually based on complex ideas. > > I also don't think it has much impact on whether complex and > powerful ideas can be explained. But some of us, who write > too much long-winded and complex text, will have to think > about how to write clearly. > > And as I pointed out to Mike, WAI doesn't ban anything. It > merely points out that some stuff is inaccessible. I am not > a fan of "Blue Poles" - once purchased by the Australian > government as the most expensive painting ever, to a large > outcry at the time and to plaudits later. I don't think it's > terribly interesting. Nor accessible. But I don't see it > being banned for that. > > On the other hand, in a battlefield situation I want to be > certain that the person at the end of the chain of command > understands, whatever their known, hidden, or newly-acquired > disability. I don't see any reason to stop people being > engineers, nor even put big difficulties in their way, if > they are capable engineers but struggle with Shakespeare. > Language used for clear and successful comunication in the > modern world is generally different from language used for > artistic expression (although there is obviously plenty of > overlap). This is not new, is not restricted to english and > is difficult to pin down. > > I get upset when my colleagues who are not native english > speakers assert that english is a "artistically poor and > restricted language, but good for technical stuff", based on > their experience of groups of non-native speakers with > different backgrounds and different levels of skill searching > of a common communications mechanism at conferences and > meetings. The english I grew up with is extremely rich in > expression, but often not very precise - a bit like the > mixture of latin and its vernacular cousins (now known as > french, romanian, spanish, catalan, italian, and so on) was a > few centuries ago, when it had a similar role. > > >> ... use of a foreign <ruby class="coolGloss"><rb>bon mot</rb> > >> <rt>clever word or two</rt></ruby>, even though... > > > >CMIIW, but this is abuse of Ruby markup. -- Theoretically and to be > >constructive, you could better use markup like > > I haven't thought really hard about the actual result markup. > I don't think it is an abuse of ruby, looking at the examples > in the specification, but I don't claim my example was of > perfect result markup. It ws just to illustrate an idea about > how all this discussion could actually have a result people can use... > > >> [...] lots of literature is not accessible to everyone who > speaks the > >> base language it was written in. Which strikes me as > uncontroversial. > > > >Agreed, but it's written in its base language, ain't it? -- Last but > >not least, and to summarize the main issues: > > > >- Is this really an important issue in WAI terms [1]? > >- What wording has to be explained, where ain't an > explanation needed? > >- What way(s) of semantic highlighting should be recommended? > > > >If these questions (of course and above all, the first) are > answered, > >there should be a general discussion on it, not yet. > > I think I agree with AL there - there are grounds for this > discussion being treated seriously as an issue in improving > accessibility, and it is hard to define a stop point or > minimal set of vocabulary (and language constructions). That > would need some thoughtful discussion and probably some more > collective thought. > > By "ways of semantic highlighting", I am assuming you mean > "what should the available results look and feel like?" (I > might have misunderstood your term). We don't seem to agree > on the role of ruby markup. There are various discussions on > this idea in this group, other groups around W3C, work on > thesauri, projects putting this stuff into practice. Again, I > don't think we can declare consensus on any answer yet, but I > think we have the basis for useful discussion. > > Cheers > > Chaals >
Received on Monday, 9 February 2004 02:11:03 UTC