- From: Jens Meiert <jens.meiert@erde3.com>
- Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:44:16 +0200 (MEST)
- To: Joe Clark <joeclark@joeclark.org>
- Cc: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Perfect. I fully agree to your post, related to XHTML WG coordination as well as all imponderableness the topic brings along. Finally, the entire model has to be revised. Regards, Jens. > Does the subject line mean "summary of table techniques" or "table > techniques for the summary attribute"? Quick, LD-boosters-- make subject > lines like this illegal on the Web! > > > Layout tables must not have a summary (not even a NULL summary). This > > reverses our earlier decision that layout tables may have a summary. > > > > The rationale behind the no summary rule is: > > - layout tables should not be used (use CSS) > > As long as HTML4 and XHTML 1.0 are W3C recommendations, people can use > tables for layout if they want. You don't have to like them, but they *are > not prohibited for layout*. The spec merely says "Tables should not be > used purely as a means to lay[ ]out document content as this may present > problems when rendering to non-visual media." "Should not" does not mean > "must not," and I challenge advocates of all-CSS-all-the-time design to > provide a list of current "non-visual media" that cannot handle layout > tables. > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/tables.html#h-11.1> > > CSS layouts are better in myriad ways and tremendously desirable, but > tables are not prohibited, nor should they be. WAI is not a higher power > than the W3C's own HTML working group. > > > - it appears that layout tables will be deprecated in XHTML2 > > XHTML2 is even farther away from ratification than WCAG 2 and has no > bearing on our deliberations here. > > > - the function of the layout table summary can be better expressed > elsewhere > > Again with the misconception that anyone gives a damn that the table, an > underlying HTML structure invisible to the visitor, is used for layout. > You don't need to "express" the "function of the... summary" at all. Just > use your table for layout. Don't get all meta on us. > > > - we should not require a NULL summary just to make the author "jump > through > > hoops" > > That isn't much a hoop to jump through. This esteemed working group > separately and elsewhere tentatively proposes that authors must police how > many nouns come in a row and add vowel markings to Hebrew, as though we > were children or something. summary="" is *nothing*. It's trivial. > > summary="" and an absent summary are so similar that the former should not > be prohibited. > > > Data tables must have a valid summary. > > Why every single data table? What if it's a 2x2-cell table that perfectly > explicates itself? Why "make the author 'jump through hoops'"? > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/tables.html#adef-summary> > > summary is an *optional* attribute in HTML. If you leave it out, your > table will still validate. Explain how WAI can require an attribute that > the W3C (X)HTML spec itself does not require. > > > Proposed description of a valid summary: > > The summary must describe the relationship between cells. > > The myriad table *headers* do that. Yet again the WAI WCAG WG (take your > pick) wants the entire Web turned into words words words, except inasmuch > as words are prohibited or tightly regulated because a learning-disabled > person may find them confusing at some unspecified future date. > > WAI (sic) has a poor record in explicating the true requirements for table > accessibility, and this is not making things better. > > > The summary does not have a maximum length. > > The (X)HTML spec doesn't say there is one, so the statement above is > meaningless. > > > The summary must not contain placeholder text. > > True. Not even a space character. > > > If the summary is less than 20 characters then it is suspicious. > > That's very amusing. You realize how compact Chinese and Japanese can be, > right? > > Here we go again with telling people how to write. > > > Can the summary just link to another document (kinda like a longdesc)? > > No. Like alt, it cannot contain markup. WAI WCAG WG (or whoever) should > know that already, but then again, considerable ignorance of the HTML spec > has already been demonstrated. > > > What if the table is summarized in the document - do you still require a > > summary attribute? > > No. > > Glad to see this has all reached the stage of "resolution." Too bad it > stinks. > > -- > > Joe Clark | joeclark@joeclark.org > Author, _Building Accessible Websites_ > <http://joeclark.org/access/> | <http://joeclark.org/book/> > -- Jens Meiert Steubenstr. 28 D-26123 Oldenburg Mobil +49 (0)175 78 4146 5 Telefon +49 (0)441 99 86 147 Telefax +49 (0)89 1488 2325 91 Mail <jens@meiert.com> Internet <http://meiert.com>
Received on Friday, 8 August 2003 05:44:28 UTC