W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-eo@w3.org > April to June 2014

RE: EOWG Tables tutorial worksession Monday 5 May

From: Bim Egan <bim@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 16:12:30 +0100
To: "'Denis Boudreau'" <dboudreau@accessibiliteweb.com>
Cc: "'EOWG \(E-mail\)'" <w3c-wai-eo@w3.org>
Message-ID: <72BF74F4F6D24A10BB3826865B1F958B@bimlaptop>
 Hi Denis,

I wasn't at the last meeting,, or I would have spoken up in defense of the
scope attribute that you've tested in tables on: 

I don't know about VoiceOver , as I don't have a Mac, but in both Jaws  14
and NVDA, in IE11 and with Jaws in FireFox 29 the scope attribute does what
it should, which is give directional guidance and limitation for the output
of header cells.  This doesn't work when cells are read one at a time, by
just using the down arrow for navigation, but this isn't how a dedicated
screen reader user would do it. We tend to use the reader's table navigation
shortcuts to get the desired output:
. Move down = Ctrl+Alt+DownArrow (UpArrow to move up)
. Move Left= Ctrl+Alt+LeftArrow  (or RightArrow to reverse).

In short, the scope attribute prevents  the announcement of an incorrect
header as it tells the screen reader that the TH only applies to cells  in
the range given as the scope value. 

NB. Jaws output is very dependent on setting values. I have my table reading
set to "Read only marked headers". 

Using the table navigation above, my results for your test tables:

+ Example 1 (using scope):
.Jaws 14.0.9002 / Internet Explorer 11: 
  1. Navigating down the second (Cities) column the correct TH (country) is
  2. Navigating back into the first (Country) column, only the content of
that cell is announced. 
* Jaws uses a different vocal tone to differentiate between TH and TD
.NVDA 2014.1 / Firefox 29: 
  1. Navigating down the second (Cities) column the correct TH (county) is
  2. Navigating back into the first (Country) column, only the content of
that cell is announced.
* NVDA announces the row number between the TH and TD content, (the TH is
announced first (giving context to the TD content. 

+ Example 2 (without using scope):
Differences only 
.Jaws 14.0.9002 / Internet Explorer 11: 
  2. Navigating back into the first (Country) column: the Countries in all
rows above  the current cell are announced as header content. (This is
erroneous and confusing information). 
.NVDA 2014.1 / Firefox 29: 
No difference.
.NVDA 2014.1 / Internet Explorer 11: 
  2. Navigating back into the first (Country) column (in any but the first
row), The country in row 1 is announced as the header for the current cell.
(This is erroneous information). 

Firefox updated from v28 to 29 between the start and end of my testing, so
I'm not sure, but I think NVDA / FF28 behaved like NVDA in IE11, which is
why I added this as an extra result.  

Hope this helps,


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Denis Boudreau [mailto:dboudreau.mail@gmail.com] On 
      Behalf Of Denis Boudreau
      Sent: 02 May 2014 19:47
      To: Shawn Henry
      Cc: EOWG (E-mail); Eric Eggert
      Subject: Re: EOWG Tables tutorial worksession Monday 5 May
      Hello EO,
      As promised this morning, here are a few test cases to 
      validate the support and behaviours of "irregular" data 
      tables, to which a the first column would all be header 
      cells with the information organized as rows instead of 
      columns. The TH elements have been assigned a scope 
      attribute in the first example, and no such attributes in 
      the second example. Findings are reported under each 
      example. The third example is only there to compare 
      behaviours when the header cells are on the first row as 
      opposed to the first column. Results are. well. 
      disappointing. Unless I missed something, we need to 
      reconsider the examples accordingly (or at the ver least, 
      thoroughly test how is table is conveyed in various 
      browser/at combinations):
      While I'm very confident about the reliability of the 
      tests under VoiceOver and NVDA, I'm less confident about 
      JAws, which I barely use. So anyone willing to double 
      check that is more than welcomed to do so. 
      As usual, questions and comments are welcomed.
      Also, I had mentioned proposing another complex table 
      example for multiple rows of header cells and/or multiple 
      columns of header cells. This example is below:
      <caption>Fruits Inventory</caption>
      			<td rowspan="2">&#160;</td>
      			<th id="variety" rowspan="2">Varieties</th>
      			<th id="quantity" colspan="2">Quantity</th>
      			<th id="delivery" rowspan="2">Delivery</th>
      			<th id="store1" headers="quantity">Store 1</th>
      			<th id="store2" headers="quantity">Store 2</th>
      			<th rowspan="2" id="apples">Apples</th>
      			<th id="spartan" headers="variety 
      			<td headers="quantity store1 apples 
      			<td headers="quantity store2 apples 
      			<td headers="delivery apples 
      spartan">June 1st</td>
      			<th id="macintosh"headers="variety 
      			<td headers="quantity store1 apples 
      			<td headers="quantity store2 apples 
      			<td headers="delivery apples 
      macintosh">June 15th</td>
      			<th id="oranges">Oranges</th>
      			<th id="navel"headers="variety 
      			<td headers="quantity store1 oranges 
      			<td headers="quantity store2 oranges 
      			<td headers="delivery oranges 
      navel">June 30th</td>
      On May 2, 2014, at 11:59 AM, Shawn Henry <shawn@w3.org> wrote:
      > Hi EOWG folks,
      > We will have another worksession on the Tables 
      Tutorial, focusing on 
      <https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/tables/caption-summary/> and 
      > <https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/tables/tips/>
      > 	Monday 5 May 2014
      > 	1:00 Central / 2:00 Eastern / 20:00 CEST
      > Remember to get all your comments on the Tables 
      Tutorial into Github, e-mail, *or* wiki 
       *by Wed 7 May* so that Eric can address everything and 
      prepare for a (hopefully final) discussion at our 9 May 
      > Thanks!
      > ~Shawn
Received on Monday, 5 May 2014 15:12:52 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Friday, 17 January 2020 20:29:49 UTC