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Re: EOWG Tables tutorial worksession Monday 5 May

From: Eric Eggert <ee@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2014 19:48:03 +0200
To: "Bim Egan" <bim@w3.org>
Cc: "Denis Boudreau" <dboudreau@accessibiliteweb.com>, "EOWG (E-mail)" <w3c-wai-eo@w3.org>
Message-ID: <7059DAE2-5460-48D8-AC1B-7395A2055D03@w3.org>
Hi Bim, hi Sylvie,

thanks for having a look, it supports my theory that screen reader tests 
by visual users are not that reliable :-)

Best, Eric


On 5 May 2014, at 17:12, Bim Egan wrote:

> Hi Denis,
>
> I wasn't at the last meeting,, or I would have spoken up in defense of 
> the
> scope attribute that you've tested in tables on:
> http://denisboudreau.org/stuff/eowg/scopedtable-example.html
>
> I don't know about VoiceOver , as I don't have a Mac, but in both Jaws 
>  14
> and NVDA, in IE11 and with Jaws in FireFox 29 the scope attribute does 
> what
> it should, which is give directional guidance and limitation for the 
> output
> of header cells.  This doesn't work when cells are read one at a time, 
> by
> just using the down arrow for navigation, but this isn't how a 
> dedicated
> screen reader user would do it. We tend to use the reader's table 
> navigation
> shortcuts to get the desired output:
> . Move down = Ctrl+Alt+DownArrow (UpArrow to move up)
> . Move Left= Ctrl+Alt+LeftArrow  (or RightArrow to reverse).
>
> In short, the scope attribute prevents  the announcement of an 
> incorrect
> header as it tells the screen reader that the TH only applies to cells 
>  in
> the range given as the scope value.
>
> NB. Jaws output is very dependent on setting values. I have my table 
> reading
> set to "Read only marked headers".
>
> Using the table navigation above, my results for your test tables:
>
> + Example 1 (using scope):
> .Jaws 14.0.9002 / Internet Explorer 11:
> 1. Navigating down the second (Cities) column the correct TH (country) 
> is
> announced.
> 2. Navigating back into the first (Country) column, only the content 
> of
> that cell is announced.
> * Jaws uses a different vocal tone to differentiate between TH and TD
> content.
> .NVDA 2014.1 / Firefox 29:
> 1. Navigating down the second (Cities) column the correct TH (county) 
> is
> announced.
> 2. Navigating back into the first (Country) column, only the content 
> of
> that cell is announced.
> * NVDA announces the row number between the TH and TD content, (the TH 
> is
> announced first (giving context to the TD content.
>
> + Example 2 (without using scope):
> Differences only
> .Jaws 14.0.9002 / Internet Explorer 11:
> 2. Navigating back into the first (Country) column: the Countries in 
> all
> rows above  the current cell are announced as header content. (This is
> erroneous and confusing information).
> .NVDA 2014.1 / Firefox 29:
> No difference.
> .NVDA 2014.1 / Internet Explorer 11:
> 2. Navigating back into the first (Country) column (in any but the 
> first
> row), The country in row 1 is announced as the header for the current 
> cell.
> (This is erroneous information).
>
> Firefox updated from v28 to 29 between the start and end of my 
> testing, so
> I'm not sure, but I think NVDA / FF28 behaved like NVDA in IE11, which 
> is
> why I added this as an extra result.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Bim
>
>
>    -----Original Message-----
>    From: Denis Boudreau [mailto:dboudreau.mail@gmail.com] On
>    Behalf Of Denis Boudreau
>    Sent: 02 May 2014 19:47
>    To: Shawn Henry
>    Cc: EOWG (E-mail); Eric Eggert
>    Subject: Re: EOWG Tables tutorial worksession Monday 5 May
>
>    Hello EO,
>
>    As promised this morning, here are a few test cases to
>    validate the support and behaviours of "irregular" data
>    tables, to which a the first column would all be header
>    cells with the information organized as rows instead of
>    columns. The TH elements have been assigned a scope
>    attribute in the first example, and no such attributes in
>    the second example. Findings are reported under each
>    example. The third example is only there to compare
>    behaviours when the header cells are on the first row as
>    opposed to the first column. Results are. well.
>    disappointing. Unless I missed something, we need to
>    reconsider the examples accordingly (or at the ver least,
>    thoroughly test how is table is conveyed in various
>    browser/at combinations):
>
>    http://denisboudreau.org/stuff/eowg/scopedtable-example.html
>
>    While I'm very confident about the reliability of the
>    tests under VoiceOver and NVDA, I'm less confident about
>    JAws, which I barely use. So anyone willing to double
>    check that is more than welcomed to do so.
>
>    As usual, questions and comments are welcomed.
>
>    Also, I had mentioned proposing another complex table
>    example for multiple rows of header cells and/or multiple
>    columns of header cells. This example is below:
>
>    <table>
>    <caption>Fruits Inventory</caption>
>    	<thead>
>    		<tr>
>    			<td rowspan="2">&#160;</td>
>    			<th id="variety" rowspan="2">Varieties</th>
>    			<th id="quantity" colspan="2">Quantity</th>
>    			<th id="delivery" rowspan="2">Delivery</th>
>    		</tr>
>    		<tr>
>    			<th id="store1" headers="quantity">Store 1</th>
>    			<th id="store2" headers="quantity">Store 2</th>
>    		</tr>
>    	</head>
>    	<tbody>
>    		<tr>
>    			<th rowspan="2" id="apples">Apples</th>
>    			<th id="spartan" headers="variety
>    apples">Spartan</th>
>    			<td headers="quantity store1 apples
>    spartan">50</td>
>    			<td headers="quantity store2 apples
>    spartan">50</td>
>    			<td headers="delivery apples
>    spartan">June 1st</td>
>    		</tr>
>    		<tr>
>    			<th id="macintosh"headers="variety
>    apples">MacIntosh</th>
>    			<td headers="quantity store1 apples
>    macintosh">50</td>
>    			<td headers="quantity store2 apples
>    macintosh">50</td>
>    			<td headers="delivery apples
>    macintosh">June 15th</td>
>    		</tr>
>    		<tr>
>    			<th id="oranges">Oranges</th>
>    			<th id="navel"headers="variety
>    oranges">Navel</th>
>    			<td headers="quantity store1 oranges
>    navel">100</td>
>    			<td headers="quantity store2 oranges
>    navel">100</td>
>    			<td headers="delivery oranges
>    navel">June 30th</td>
>    		</tr>
>    	</tbody>
>    </table>
>
>
>    /Denis
>
>
>
>    On May 2, 2014, at 11:59 AM, Shawn Henry <shawn@w3.org> wrote:
>
>    > Hi EOWG folks,
>    >
>    > We will have another worksession on the Tables
>    Tutorial, focusing on
>    >
>    <https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/tables/caption-summary/> and
>    > <https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/tables/tips/>
>    >
>    > 	Monday 5 May 2014
>    > 	1:00 Central / 2:00 Eastern / 20:00 CEST
>    >
>    > Remember to get all your comments on the Tables
>    Tutorial into Github, e-mail, *or* wiki
>    <https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Tutorials/Feedback/Tables>
>     *by Wed 7 May* so that Eric can address everything and
>    prepare for a (hopefully final) discussion at our 9 May
>    teleconference.
>    >
>    > Thanks!
>    >
>    > ~Shawn
>    >




--

Eric Eggert, Web Accessibility Specialist
WAI-ACT Project

I’m yatil on IRC.
Received on Monday, 5 May 2014 17:48:34 UTC

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