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FW: card4+

From: Neff, Robert <Robert.Neff@usmint.treas.gov>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:44:29 -0500
Message-ID: <67F97DCE5F30D11185770000F67CB408015D12A2@WDCSRV01.usmint.treas.gov>
To: "'w3c-wai-gl@w3.org'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Cc: "'w3c-wai-eo@w3.org'" <w3c-wai-eo@w3.org>, "'w3c-wai-ig@w3.org'" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>

Please see the correspondence below, first my message then Charles
McCathieNevile's comments with my original comment. This concerns using
"tables with navbars" versus not using "tables to format text".  

I feel we are sending mixed messages and if "tables with navbars" as
described below are not acceptable, then just about everyone in the Federal
Government and commercial world is not in-line with the soon to be published

For the benefit of designers who are designing web sites and who also
redesigning web sites, I respectfully request a response.  I feel this is an
area where we need to clarify the WAI's position. 

Very Truly Yours,
Robert Neff

-----Original Message-----
From:	Charles McCathieNevile [SMTP:charles@w3.org]
Sent:	Monday, February 01, 1999 3:07 PM
To:	Neff, Robert
Subject:	RE: card4+ 

Rob, can you forward your message to the GL group, since I think you raise a
valid point. You could also add my 2c worth which is as follows:
It is there because you can tell people not to use tabless for layout until
you are blue in the face. It won't stop them. So if they are going to, they
could at least try to solve the other problems.
I agree with you that we may be sending out mixed messages, thereby
priveliging the wrong one.
On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Neff, Robert wrote:
Understand.  Then why is this stated as such in the Page Authoring GL, 

"If a table is used for layout, do not use any structural markup for the
purpose of visual formatting.  <wai-pageauth-tech.html#tech-table-layout>
For example, in HTML do not use the table header (TH) element to cause the
contents of a cell to be displayed centered and in bold. Other attributes of
a table, such as a caption describing the layout purpose and content of
columns is valuable, particularly if some cells become navbars, frames,
images, imagemaps, or lists of links. [Priority 1] " 

If I am interpreting this properly, then they are stating that it is ok to
use tables for these (navbars, frames, images, imagemaps ) but don't use any
structural markup for the purpose of visual formatting.  I think a stand
should be taken so as not to confuse the audience.  These are questions I am
being asked and maybe have convoluted this?  

Could use some help here, rob
	-----Original Message-----
  	From:	Charles McCathieNevile [SMTP:charles@w3.org]
  	Sent:	Monday, February 01, 1999 8:40 AM
  	To:	Neff, Robert
  	Cc:	WAI GL
  	Subject:	RE: card4+ 
The fact that it is a navbar rather than a columnar paragraph does
Not  change the problem, which is that the screen is read one whole line
(or as  near as the reader can get) at a time, so the links are interspersed
apparently at random into the text.  I don't mind seeing it, but having it
read to me makes life difficult. 
I would like to see an example where a Table is made with a
navigation bar on the left and text in on right where one cell is used.
see my discussion below.  I feel this would clarify something (navbars and
text) that is commonly used.  I see navbars widely used and they are used in
conjuction with multiple text columns and rows.  For an example, see
www.dol.gov <http://www.dol.gov>  <http://www.dol.gov <http://www.dol.gov> >
Please feel free to contact if anyone would like to discuss this further.

Many thanks,  Rob Neff 

--Charles McCathieNevile            mailto:charles@w3.org
phone: +1 617 258 0992   http://purl.oclc.org/net/charles
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative    http://www.w3.org/WAI
MIT/LCS  -  545 Technology sq., Cambridge MA, 02139,  USA
Received on Tuesday, 2 February 1999 08:44:45 UTC

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