- From: Peter Murray-Rust <Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk>
- Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:16:19 GMT
- To: w3c-sgml-wg@w3.org
<WARNING> I hope that the views in this posting won't upset too many people - they are meant to re-emphasise the unknown areas that XML will be used in and what it needs to cater for. </WARNING> I am assuming that XML will be a success. In that case, most of the people using it will be completely new to SGML, its traditions, its terminology and its syntax. I suspect that most of the people on the WG - who are battle- hardened SGML professionals - have forgotten how hard it is to learn SGML. I don't know whether there are other webhackers on this list (i.e. people who have never had to hack SGML as part of their raison-d'etre) - if so I think that their views should be listened to. If not, then please treat mine as a sample of 1 from a very large population and scale accordingly. Having been called the WG's bellwether (sic) - a ('ringleader, or loud turbulent fellow' according to my dictionary) the rest of this presents my view of the webhacker and what they want (not necessarily what they need) from XML. <FACT> It took me three years to learn SGML, its terminology, its syntax (which I find the most difficult I have come across). </FACT> <SUPPOSITION> 90% of the XML-users in a years' time will have had no contact with SGML. Most will not be CS graduates - most will be Dirty Perl Hackers and HTML hackers. </SUPPOSITION> I base this on the likelihood that they will encounter it through browsers, through webzine hype, etc. When Java came out it was seen as a way of making images dance across the screen, rather than the (good) OO language that it is. XML will similarly be seen as a roll-your-own tag factory. The real power will be ignored (at least at first). <FACT> Most webhackers need quick fixes. They have little time to go into the difficult parts of languages until they have to. </FACT> <FACT> DTDs take a great deal of time to create well. </FACT> I know this is true because every time someone posts on c.t.s the universal reply is 'you really have to take time to understand your data model, don't rush into creating a DTD quickly, you have to keep revising it till you've got it right.' I don't quarrel with this :-) <COROLLARY> Most of the next generation of XML-techies are not going to create DTDs. They don't know how, haven't been apprenticed, and don't see the point. So the number of DTDs created will be quite small. Most of these will come from the currently SGML-literate. IMO this represents quite a small proportion of the XML community - if it doesn't then XML will not be a universal success. </COROLLARY> To make XML a success initially it has to be simple. I hope that whatever the ERB decides on the last 3-4 weeks' discussions, they recognise that XML must have an entry point that entices non-SGML-literates to start playing, **without help from the SGML community.** Please also accept that some of the things labelled 'simple' in the XML spec are not necessarily simple for newcomers. PE's may now be simple, but their implementation is not easy to determine from the spec. If they really are as simple as DEFINE, then highlight the rules, please :-) <CONTROVERSY> Personally I believe that DTD validation will be a fairly small part of what people will require from the validation process. IMO a serious lack in SGML is any requirement to add any machine or textual semantics to the DTD. There is no mechanism for extracting DTD information into processing code, no WEB-like (in the DEK sense) way of documenting it. How do I find out what FOO actually means to a human? How do you extract the human semantics from (say) HTML2.0 - it's in a completely separate document. What most people will want is intimate linking of tags to semantic information. </CONTROVERSY> This isn't to say that DTDs aren't important. I've written them for CML, but they have to be so flexible that they have few constraints. What is far more important is what semantics attach to each element, and I've put a lot of (probably very amateur) work into that with glossaries, Java methods, etc. <ANECDOTE> I have just come back from two days about Objects in Bioinformatics - the human genome, etc. Our community are addressing information sharing, and they don't use SGML. They currently use FORTRAN-formats. Now they are looking for the next generation - and the embryonic universal solution is CORBA and JAVA/C++. This will manage most of what they want to do. </ANECDOTE> So I am trying to sell them XML. Why, and how? - it is simpler (unless it gets made too complicated). - it can be read by humans. They can touch and feel the data. They aren't frightened of angle brackets any more. It can be hacked. It's the obvious replacement for their FORTRAN files. - it will be in the browsers. (BUT so ar ORBs (the latest Netscape has an ORB - Visibroker, I believe.) This means that they will discover this wonderful thing XML and start hacking. Not the slightest chance that they will use DTDs. So IMO this posting represents something moderately close to 90% of the likely XML community. If you want XML to be widely used you have to take note of it. You may not like it, but it's reality. I am really looking forward to July 1. I will do my best to implement what emerges. :-) P. -- Peter Murray-Rust, domestic net connection Virtual School of Molecular Sciences http://www.vsms.nottingham.ac.uk/
Received on Friday, 20 June 1997 18:12:07 UTC