Minutes of RDFcore telecon 2003-05-16

Time:
10:00:00 Fri May 16 2003 in America/New York duration 120 minutes

which is equivalent to
15:00:00 Fri May 16 2003 in Europe/London

Phone: +1-617-761-6200 (Zakim)#7332
irc: irc.w3.org #rdfcore

Agenda:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0183.html
IRC log: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-05-16

(Copy of my IRC log attached for W3 archive)


Summary of decisions:

RESOLVED: we accept comment pfps-08, and 3.4 in the semantics editors draft 
addresses it.
RESOLVED: we accept comment pfps-01, and that it is addressed by the 
revised text in the semantics editor's draft.
RESOLVED: to not accept comment pfps-03
RESOLVED: we accept comment pfps-05, and it is addressed by by rule rdfs1 
in section 4.2 of the Semantics editor's draft
RESOLVED: to accept comment timbl-03 and remove requirement for List 
element type triples to be generated by RDF parsers
RESOLVED: do not accept xmlsch-05
RESOLVED: to accept xmlsch-06, with revised wording as noted


Summary of actions:

(Note:  some actions were inferred, and are marked [[[to be confirmed]]])

PatH respond to Peter regarding pfps-08 resolution
PatH respond to Peter regarding pfps-01 resolution
PatH respond to Peter regarding pfps-03 resolution
PatH [[[to be confirmed]]] respond to Peter regarding pfps-05 resolution
daveb respond to commenter regarding timbl-03 decision
daveb apprise webont of timbl-03 decision
daveb update syntax document in light of timbl-03 decision
daveb update test cases in light of timbl-03 decision
frankM update primer in light of timbl-03 decision
bwm review schema document for changes in light of timbl-03 decision
PatH [[[to be confirmed]]] check for changes to Semantics in light of 
timbl-03 decision
jjc respond to commenter regarding xmlsch-05 decision
jjc [[[to be confirmed]]] update conepts document per xmlsch-06 decision
jjc [[[to be confirmed]]] respond to commenter

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1: scribe: Jan being unavailable - GK scribes


2: Roll Call

Present:  Brian McBride
           Dave Beckett
           Pat Hayes
           Graham Klyne,
           Jeremy Carroll
           Frank Manola
           Mike Dean

Guest:    Joseph Reagle  (for agendum 3)

Regrets:  Patrick Stickler
           Jos de Roo


3: Update on embedding RDF in XML

Joseph Reagle summarized efforts to create a task force to discuss the matter
of embedding RDF in XHTML. See IRC log for detailed comments:
   http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-05-16#T14-08-53

In summary, initial goal to to scope the problem, gather initial reqirements,
determine if the problem is realistically solvable and establish
communications between metadata and hypertext communities. Expect some
initial sense of tractability of the problem with a month or so.

Draft charter for the task force:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-semweb-cg/2003May/0040.html

esw wiki on this stuff:
   http://esw.w3.org/topic/EmbeddingRDFinHTML

We thank Joseph for apprising us of this planned activity.


4: Review Agenda

No changes.



5: Next telecon 30 May 2003 1000 Boston Time

[[[Did we get a voluteer scribe?  If so, I missed it - GK]]]



6: Minutes of 09 May 2003 telecon

See:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0138.html

No comments.


7: Confirm Status of Completed Actions

Per agenda:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0183.html

All accepted.


8: Issue pfps-08

See:
   http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20030123-issues/#pfps-08

Proposal as in:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0181.html

Propose: that we accept the comment,
and 3.4 in the semantics editors draft addresses it.
   http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/TR/WD-rdf-mt-20030117/#dtype_interp
Jeremy has reviewed the test and agrees.

Proposed PatH, seconded: JJC [[[?]]]
None against, none abstrain.

RESOLVED: we accept comment pfps-08, and 3.4 in the semantics editors draft 
addresses it.

ACTION: PatH respond to Peter regarding pfps-08 resolution


9: Issue pfps-01

See:
   http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20030123-issues/#pfps-01

Per Pat's message
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0162.html

Propose:
   - accept
   - note that it has been addressed by the following text (between **-**) in
     the editors draft:
     http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/TR/WD-rdf-mt-20030117/#dtype_interp
[[
The datatype map which also contains the set of all pairs of the form
<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#sss , sss>, where sss is a built-in
datatype **which has well-defined lexical and value spaces and a
lexical-to-value mapping and** is named sss in XML Schema Part 2: Datatypes
[XML-SCHEMA2], eg decimal, string, is referred to here as XSD.
]]

Also, some suggested editorial changes to this per:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0175.html

Proposed: path, as above, with editorial discretion regarding changes
Seconded: ?

RESOLVED: we accept comment pfps-01, and that it is addressed by the 
revised text in the semantics editor's draft

ACTION: PatH respond to Peter regarding pfps-01 resolution


10: issue pfps-03 LBase appendix is pointless

See:
   http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20030123-issues/#pfps-03

Per Pat's message
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0162.html

Propose:
   - not accept
   - note that the purpose of the appendix is informative (for a certain
     class of readers) rather than definitive.
   - note that document states:
[[
"The editor believes that both of these descriptions, and also the closure
rules described in section 4, are all in exact correspondence, but only the
directly described model theory in sections 1- 3 should be taken as
normative."
]]

It was also noted that even for DAML, the axiomatic semantics were most
commonly cited:  people do find these easier to understand.

Pat proposes, DaveB seconds
None against, none abstain

RESOLVED: to not accept comment pfps-03
ACTION: PatH respond to Peter regarding pfps-03 resolution


11: Issue pfps-05 RDFS closure rules

See:
   http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20030123-issues/#pfps-05

Per Pat's message
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0162.html

and Graham's additions:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0175.html

Propose
   - accept it
   - addressed by rule rdfs1 in section 4.2 of the editor's draft
     http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/TR/WD-rdf-mt-20030117/#dtype_interp
so that using rdfs1 +  rdfs3 + rdfs7a + rdfs9

    rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:range rdfs:Class .       (sect 3.3 axiom)
    rdf:XMLLiteral rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Literal . (sect 3.3 axiom)
gives:
    rdfs:Literal rdf:type rdfs:Class .            (by rdfs3)
gives:
    rdfs:Literal rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Resource .  (by rdfs7a)

then, from rdfs1, we have:
    _:nnn rdf:type rdfs:Literal
hence:
    _:nnn rdf:type rdfs:Resource                  (by rdfs9)


Proposed, as above:  PatH, seconded: GK
None against, none abstain

RESOLVED: we accept comment pfps-05, and it is addressed by by rule rdfs1 
in section 4.2 of the Semantics editor's draft
ACTION: PatH [[[to be confirmed]]] respond to Peter regarding pfps-05 
resolution


12: Issue timbl-03

See:
   http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20030123-issues/#timbl-03

The response from WebOnt indicated no clear technical problem with removal of
List type triples, but a preference to leave them in.

Discussion - see:
   http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-05-16#T14-41-24

A first straw poll was evenly divided.

After further discussion, a second straw poll was somewhat in favout of
removing the extra triples.

Proposed: to accept comment timbl-03
Proposed PatH, seconded: GK
For: PatH, GK, FrankM;  against: none;  abstain: jjc, daveb, miked

RESOLVED: to accept comment timbl-03 and remove requirement for List 
element type triples to be generated by RDF parsers
ACTION: daveb respond to commenter regarding timbl-03 decision
ACTION: daveb apprise webont of timbl-03 decision
ACTION: daveb update syntax document in light of timbl-03 decision
ACTION: daveb update test cases in light of timbl-03 decision
ACTION: frankM update primer in light of timbl-03 decision
ACTION: bwm review schema document for changes in light of timbl-03 decision
ACTION: PatH [[[to be confirmed]]] check for changes to Semantics in light 
of timbl-03 decision


13: Issue xmlsch-05 Character Sequences

See:
   http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20030123-issues/#xmlsch-05

Per Jeremy's message:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0151.html

PROPOSE: to not accept this comment.
Rationale:
It feels like a fairly extensive editorial change. Also in the semantic web
activity documents xsd:string is always refered to in its qualified form, and
so the possible confusion is diminsihed.

Proposed: jjc, seconded: daveb, as above
None against, none abstain

RESOLVED:  do not accept xmlsch-05
ACTION: jjc respond to commenter regarding xmlsch-05 decision


14: Issue xmlsch-06 natural language data

See:
   http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20030123-issues/#xmlsch-06

Per Jeremy's message
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0151.html

Discussion:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Apr/0216.html

PROPOSE to accept; with rewording like this:
[[
A plain literal is a string combined with an optional language
         identifier. This may be used for plain text
         in a natural language. As recommended in the RDF formal semantics
         [RDF-SEMANTICS], these plain literals are self-denoting.
]]

Proposed: jjc, seconded daveb
None against, none abstain

RESOLVED: to accept xmlsch-06, with revised wording as noted
ACTION: jjc [[[to be confirmed]]] update conepts document per xmlsch-06 
decision
ACTION: jjc [[[to be confirmed]]] respond to commenter


Meeting closed.


There was some "after hours" discussion of Peter Patel-Schneider's
observation of non- monotonicity in datatyped interpretations.  See:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0187.html
and subsequent thread.


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-------------------
Graham Klyne
<GK@NineByNine.org>
PGP: 0FAA 69FF C083 000B A2E9  A131 01B9 1C7A DBCA CB5E