Re: [whatwg] HTML6 proposal for single-page apps without Javascript

> On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:43 PM, Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> On 3/30/2015 10:02 PM, Bobby Mozumder wrote:
>> One thing I’m interested in is to see more technical discussions  > around this idea.  Like, very specific issues that show a design or 
> > concept flaw.  It’s only been about 10 days since I proposed this and > I haven’t received much in that area.  (I did change one thing to > split MREF from HREF based on feedback about people wanting backwards > compatibility.)
> Technical discussion is the last step of the process. The reason why people haven't provided technical feedback is because you have failed to motivate your proposal.

I gave a limited one-page idea for now, so design faults should be obvious.  This will take years, but right now it’s looking like there aren’t fundamental problems with the proposal.  Most of the unnecessary arguments against it boil down to people just stuck in their comfort-zone, and those people aren’t the target audience for this proposal anyways.  Javascript people are going to be happy with their existing selection of MVC frameworks, so why would they want anything new like this?

The mistake Javascript developers are making is that they make the assumption that everybody else is a Javascript developer.

>> Instead, I’m mostly getting a lot of “I’m scared!” or “Everyone  > should get a PhD in Javascript like I did!” which obviously isn’t > 
> going to happen. So, if there are technical faults with the proposal > here, definitely list them.  (or preferably in the Github, where I > can keep track of issues directly)
> Attacking your detractors with ad hominems is a great way to get yourself ignored. People aren't saying those things--they're questioning the utility of your proposal in the first place. You take it for granted that HTML needs a complex, SQL-based MVC framework. You take it for granted that JS is the devil and should be avoided. You appear to take it for granted that using JS frameworks is a problem that needs to be solved. These views are not commonly held on this mailing list, and you're completely ignoring the feedback which is, in effect, questioning these assumptions.

Not ad hominem.  I’ve literally had developers tell me everyone should learn Javascript.  Example: https://twitter.com/yoavweiss/status/582490158496419840

That's obviously a horrible idea.  Why would anyone encourage millions of other people to do more work?   Everyone’s time is limited.  Why should a fashion-blogger spend time to learn JS to get a responsive high-speed site?  They have other things to worry about, like next season’s collections.  

The best experience should be on by default, and you need a built-in MVC framework in HTML for that to happen.

>> We need to be able to advance the web without going through  > Javascript.  It’s a mistake to assume that JS is a fundamental part 
> > of the web.  The web is optimized for hypertext document processing, > and most people use it to read content online.  This proposal fixes a > remaining issue with that.
> Serious question: why? What benefit does it bring? That JS is bad is not a self-evident proposition.

You’re asking people to learn Javascript, an MVC framework, and its associated templating system, to fix a basic user experience problem with the web.  

I was talking with a Tumblr power user a couple of days ago about this and she confirmed that all Tumblr kids pretty much know the basics of HTML, somewhat fewer people know CSS, and nobody knows Javascript.  Tumblr maintains about 200 million sites.

Given all that, what’s your proposal to put forth an app-like high-speed responsive web experience without using Javascript?  Because any plan that includes “Need to know Javascript” will fail.

You’ll find that the kind of proposal I’m putting out there is the only viable solution.

-bobby
---
Bobby Mozumder
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Received on Thursday, 2 April 2015 03:00:08 UTC