Fwd: [MINUTES] W3C CCG CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2023-01-30

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> From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
> Subject: [MINUTES] W3C CCG CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2023-01-30
> Date: February 3, 2023 at 2:39:13 PM EST
> To: public-credentials@w3.org
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> 
> Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!
> 
> The transcript for the call is now available here:
> 
> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2023-01-30-vc-education/
> 
> Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
> Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:
> 
> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2023-01-30-vc-education/audio.ogg
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> VC for Education Task Force Transcript for 2023-01-30
> 
> Agenda:
>  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-edu/2023Jan/0013.html
> Topics:
>  1. IP Note
>  2. Call Notes
>  3. Introductions & Reintroductions
>  4. Main Topic - Intro to CHAPI with Manu Sporny
> Organizer:
>  Kerri Lemoie
> Scribe:
>  Our Robot Overlords
> Present:
>  Kerri Lemoie, Durga Prasad, Kate Giovacchini, TLN, Greg 
>  Bernstein, UTXOdario, Andy Griebel, Sharon Leu, Susan Stroud, 
>  Keith Hackett, Chris Webber, Sam Smith, tcouper, David I. Lehn, 
>  Phil L (P1), Simone Ravaoli, Manu Sporny, Deb Everhart, Eric 
>  Shepherd, Kayode Ezike, Stuart Freeman, Geun-Hyung, Ryan Grant, 
>  Andy Miller, Jeff O - HumanOS, Marty Reed, Phil Barker, Kimberly 
>  Linson, Keith Kowal, David Ward, Nis Jespersen , Jake, Dmitri 
>  Zagidulin, Kaliya Young, John Henderson, Colin Reynolds, Ed 
>  Design Lab, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) (OpenLinkSw.com), 
>  James Chartrand, Bob Sopko, Nate Otto, Ted Thibodeau, Chandi 
>  Cumaranatunge, Taylor (LEF), Brian, Jim Kelly, Allyson Parco, 
>  Morgan Lemmer-Webber, PL, David Baumgartner, David Chadwick, Jim 
>  Goodell, Naomi
> 
> <kerri_lemoie> Hello all - we'll get started a little after 11.
> <deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> good day everyone!
> <phil_l_(p1)> Morning VC-EDU community
> Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Everyone happy Monday welcome to the January 30th 
>  Verifiable Credentials for Education task force call today we are 
>  going to have going to be talking about CHAPI - Manu Sporny is 
>  here from Digital Bazaar and he's going to walk us through what 
>  CHAPI is and how it works how it's been used so far he's got a 
>  great presentation for us and then this is one of the topics I 
>  types of topics we'd like to continue to cover.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Edu because we know that everybody is trying to 
>  understand how all of this works this is one of those calls 
>  specifically so if you've never heard of CHAPI before this is 
>  definitely the call for you and if you have heard of it I expect 
>  you learn something new today too.
> Kerri Lemoie:   Hey so to us.
> 
> Topic: IP Note
> 
> Kerri Lemoie:  Get us going here the first thing is the IP note 
>  for w3c which is that if you are going to make any if you're 
>  putting them in making any substitute contributions to any of the 
>  standards then you should sign up to be a member and and join the 
>  ccg this is just a community call so you don't need to do that 
>  but if you need to do that the links are in the agenda that I put 
>  in the chat.
> 
> Topic: Call Notes
> 
> Kerri Lemoie:   Call notes all of these calls.
> Kerri Lemoie:  And we have a robot transcriber as you can see in 
>  the left hand side and the chat and it does its best to 
>  understand us and then we try to correct it as we go but that's 
>  how we keep track of minutes for for these calls to the folks who 
>  can't make it to the meetings can look this up later or any of us 
>  could reference it later we use a cue system in these calls and 
>  that means we type the letter Q like this in the chat like I'm 
>  doing right now and I will add you to a queue and then if you.
> Kerri Lemoie:   Want to be removed from the key you can type q-.
> Kerri Lemoie:   And if you.
> Kerri Lemoie:  To something directly that someone is hacking 
>  about it's helpful to get you to go to q and then put in the 
>  topic or whatever you'd like to say whatever it's in relation to 
>  because then the person moderating the call on knows maybe when 
>  to pull you into the order of the conversation okay.
> 
> Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions
> 
> Kerri Lemoie:  About 34 people here in the college or anyone here 
>  today that would like to make an introduction and tell us more 
>  about why they're here and what they're working on or 
>  reintroduction even if you've been here before.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Greg you are in the queue.
> Greg Bernstein:  Hi I'm Gregg Bernstein I've been working more on 
>  networking standards in the past but now I've been working on 
>  more the security Suites associated with VC credentials and I'm 
>  particularly interested in getting BBS signatures along 
>  particularly for educational type of credentials.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Okay thank you thanks for the introduction welcome 
>  Susan.
> Kerri Lemoie:   See you.
> Susan_Stroud: I appreciate it yes I'm Susan's drought I'm a 
>  technologist and founder and currently a student at MIT working 
>  through the blockchain activities and our efforts to really equip 
>  veterans with the information and digital tools that they need to 
>  successfully transition into civilian life has actually led me to 
>  this particular forms I'm very interested I have read through 
>  some of the past nodes and looking forward to learning more in 
>  the days and weeks to come thank you.
> Susan_Stroud: I would love that thank you.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you Susan I actually am also I am my name's 
>  Kerri Lemoie I work at MIT at the digital credential Consortium 
>  so we should talk more at some point fill you in on these things. 
>  Colin you have the floor.
> <sharon_leu> @Susan_Stroud, I'm working on a veterans transition 
>  project, too!
> Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: Hey thanks Gary Susan of feel like 
>  we should tattoo just want to say thanks to everyone here that 
>  was attended the experience you project kickoff event last week I 
>  just wanted to throw that out in front of the group again to say 
>  that this is an initiative through the US chamber Foundation T3 
>  Innovation at work in a Design Lab to take unstructured learning 
>  data and structured into basically be seized and helped populate 
>  all yours using.
> Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab:  a I so we're in the team 
>  formation process right now.
> Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: And I can put a link in the chat 
>  to more information about that but just wanted to say thanks to 
>  those that attended and those that weren't able check out the 
>  link that we're still kind of forming teams and have a lot of 
>  interest but yeah the VC edu Community is definitely something 
>  that's helped to inform this whole process and yeah want to keep 
>  everybody just up to speed with it.
> Kerri Lemoie:  That's great Colin thank you.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Is anybody else anything to say any introductions 
>  or things.
> <jake> Where’s the link for the recording of that meeting or how 
>  to apply
> <kerri_lemoie> Announcements & Reminders
> <kerri_lemoie> register for IIW: 
>  https://internetidentityworkshop.com/
> Kerri Lemoie:  You are so often do announcements so the next part 
>  of our call is anybody have any other announcements that they 
>  would like to make one that I will I will put in here right now 
>  is for registration for the internet identity workshop and is 
>  open so I'm going to put the link to their website and the chap.
> Kerri Lemoie:   And what is it.
> Kerri Lemoie:  This this is an excellent unconference where a lot 
>  of work happens and you get to meet a lot of people in our 
>  community so I highly suggest going for able to Kalia speaking of 
>  which you have the floor sure.
> Kaliya Young: https://apacdigitalid.org/
> Kaliya Young:  Thanks for sharing I also wanted to add we're 
>  working with folks in the Asia Pacific region on a similar to iiw 
>  but totally independent event happening in Thailand at the 
>  beginning of March so if you have colleagues that are in the APAC 
>  region.
> Kaliya Young:   We've never had.
> Kaliya Young:  Come to iaw or just want to connect with folks 
>  working on digital identity in the region this is a great 
>  opportunity so please share it.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks Claire mommy you have to Florida.
> <manu_sporny> Demonstration of Support for EdDSA Cryptosuite 
>  Adoption into VCWG: 
>  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-wg/2023Jan/0027.html
> Manu Sporny:  Thanks Gary um real quick announcement about 
>  something happening in the verifiable credentials working group 
>  this week we sent out a demonstration of support for the Edwards 
>  curve crypto sweet this is this is this is one of the crypto 
>  sweets that was used very heavily in the jmf plugfest to plugfest 
>  there were over 20 companies that demonstrated interop there.
> Manu Sporny:   There too.
> Manu Sporny:  Official work item into the standards group we 
>  needed to demonstrate kind of support for it and there's a letter 
>  there with a lot of signatures on it many from you that went out 
>  but the link I put into the chat Channel if you were not able to 
>  get your name on that letter to support descriptive sweet as a 
>  global standard just responding to that email is another way for 
>  you to kind of show your support for the crypto sweet again this 
>  this.
> Manu Sporny:   Crypto Suite is.
> Manu Sporny:  What we use to demonstrate interop in the the 
>  plugfest to it is also the crypto sweet that is being pushed into 
>  production across the u.s. for a number of retail use cases like 
>  digital age verification so if you would like to see you know 
>  this kryptos we'd become a global standard please send an email 
>  you know demonstrating your support for that script is sweet.
> Manu Sporny:  The first item second item is that the verifiable 
>  credentials working group is having a face-to-face meeting in 
>  Miami in about 14 days I think there are about what is it 
>  something like 12 people in the 15 people attending in person 20 
>  people total if you're not in the working group you can request a 
>  be there as an observer you contact the chairs to do that.
> Manu Sporny:   It will be a three day.
> Manu Sporny:  In the middle of the week Tuesday Wednesday 
>  Thursday that's it.
> <kerri_lemoie> VC WG https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/vc
> Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you manu I'll put a link to the VC working 
>  group and the check two books and take a look at that.
> 
> Topic: Main Topic - Intro to CHAPI with Manu Sporny
> 
> Kerri Lemoie:  Hey our queue is empty I don't see any other 
>  announcements or introductions but feel free to jump into the 
>  queue and do that at any time during the call if something comes 
>  to mind but first what we're going to do now is I like to do some 
>  on you I was just speaking to give us a presentation and didn T 
>  just about chappie which is a credential Handler API makes 
>  monitors your coming here today to do this.
> <colin_reynolds,_ed_design_lab> @Jake - the resources are getting 
>  posted on the T3 Network Hub today but if you send me an email, I 
>  can forward ALL the resources from the kickoff event
> Manu Sporny:  Of course always happy to thank you for the invite 
>  let me go ahead and share my screen for those of you that I have 
>  not met yet my name is Manu Spore knee I am the lead editor on 
>  the verifiable credential specification the decentralized 
>  identifier specification data integrity and a variety of other 
>  kind of verifiable credential related specifications.
> Manu Sporny:   Is that w3c.
> Manu Sporny:  This work back in 2012 issue I think and it's great 
>  to see it grow into what it is today so and and super awesome 
>  that like the VC edu group exists and is so vibrant you know I 
>  think these calls are now bigger than the main calls which is 
>  which is really awesome to see that kind of traction in the 
>  education space.
> Manu Sporny:   Okay so.
> Manu Sporny:  Talk about how how we move credentials around the 
>  ecosystem so specifically how does somebody go to a website and 
>  get a credential from that website into their digital wallet how 
>  do they hold it in their digital wallet and manage it in their 
>  digital wallet and then how do they then go to a totally 
>  different website that wants a verifiable credential from them 
>  and how did they deliver that.
> <colin_reynolds,_ed_design_lab> @Jake + all - Here is a link to 
>  the Experience You [Public] project folder with the project paper 
>  and call for participation and all the video recordings: 
>  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1qIDLscV4IgLdSc6zzRWCnK2MtMKaiwO-?usp=share_link
> Manu Sporny:   Anshel to the other website this is just one 
>  technique.
> Manu Sporny:  That can do this the credential Handler API chappie 
>  there are other technologies that will you know get into in a bit 
>  but that's basically the gist of the talk today and it's meant to 
>  be kind of like a high-level introduction please stop me as we go 
>  I'll try and pause every couple of slides to ask if there are any 
>  questions again you know this is meant to be a high level.
> Manu Sporny:   All presentation so just highlight.
> Manu Sporny:  Answer totally totally fine inappropriate okay so 
>  let's let's get into it the.
> <bob_sopko> I'm new to this meeting.  We are smarteduwallet.io.  
>  Separately, I'm involved since the beginning with top level 
>  domain www.secure.jobs.  www.linkedin.com/in/bobsopko
> Manu Sporny:  Chappie stands for again the credential Handler API 
>  it is kind of a browser-based technology to help us move 
>  verifiable credentials around and this is the only picture that 
>  you really need to understand to understand what chap he's doing 
>  right what we have here on the left is verifiable credential 
>  issuer like the university community college you know what have 
>  you.
> Manu Sporny:   And they're going to issue credentials into.
> <greg_bernstein> Not seeing the slides?
> Manu Sporny:  All it that is controlled by an individual a 
>  student or a teacher or a professor of some kind and then they're 
>  going to hold a digital credentials in that digital wallet and 
>  then their going to move it to a verifier so a job hiring site an 
>  employer of some kind another University it's on so forth and 
>  this is basically kind of the.
> <kerri_lemoie> Link to slides in case you can't see: 
>  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/166wxPer_d_xN9afCdAO7PGYrVGlKYXP0gLZSKlejOVE/edit#slide=id.ge9090756a_1_300
> <phil_l_(p1)> Also not seeing the slide
> Manu Sporny:  That you know is in verifiable credentials you've 
>  got issuers if that holders and you've got verifiers chappie is 
>  the thing that moves the credentials between these entities in 
>  the ecosystem so these little purple boxes that you see with the 
>  little arrows back and forth this type of communication this 
>  channel of communication that's chappie so that is effectively 
>  what we're talking about today thank you.
> Manu Sporny:   For sharing the slides Kari can anyone else I 
>  guess not.
> Manu Sporny:  You know Philly okay all right.
> Kerri Lemoie:  They are looking okay for me here so I think folks 
>  who can't see might want to follow along in the Google Doc.
> <jake> Thank you Colin
> Manu Sporny:  Okay thanks okay so this is it like at a high level 
>  this is it this is all there really is to chappie will dive down 
>  into the details but like this is basically at a high level so 
>  let me let me pause here are there any questions at a high level 
>  about kind of what we're talking about here it's just a mechanism 
>  to move credentials between the entities and in the verifiable 
>  credentials ecosystem.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Nothing so far
> Manu Sporny:  Okay all right so what does chappie do chappie has 
>  a couple of features in it and again Chappy's something that is 
>  just there in your browser right it's something that does 
>  something in your browser you as an individual really don't have 
>  to think about it it's the developers that have to worry about it 
>  and making sure that they included in their websites that you as 
>  an individual just showing up to a website that's chappie.
> Manu Sporny:   Able just get to start using it right so the.
> <kerri_lemoie> Page 3 of slides
> Manu Sporny:  That chappie does is it enables digital wallet 
>  registration what that means is that we presume well we know that 
>  they're going to be many different digital wallets in the world 
>  in what we're trying to do with chappie is to make sure that 
>  people have a choice in the digital wallets that they pick we 
>  don't want large big Tech tip effectively in like push their 
>  digital Wallets on people and not really give them a choice we 
>  want individuals to find the digital wallet.
> Manu Sporny:   Wallets that work best for them go to those 
>  websites and then allow them to.
> Manu Sporny:  Digital wallets with the web browser so this is the 
>  first thing that chappie does is digital wallet registration on 
>  the left here the animations probably better in if you look at 
>  the slides life but the diagram on the left here is showing the 
>  chappie dialogue that says hey this website this digital wallet 
>  website would like to manage your credentials manage credentials 
>  on your behalf is that okay with you yes no in this dialog works 
>  very much.
> Manu Sporny:   Much like allowing a website access to your 
>  camera.
> Manu Sporny:  Site access to your geolocation you're basically 
>  saying I want this website to manage my digital credentials for 
>  me right and you can click that button many times on many 
>  different websites you can have many different digital wallets so 
>  the image on the right here shows the chappie choose a wallet 
>  dialogue in you will see multiple entries in here from multiple 
>  different types of wallets so these are the wallets that we used 
>  in the jmf plugfest you can see you know.
> Manu Sporny:   This wallet learned.
> Manu Sporny:  Charles laners wallet teacher wallet and just 
>  another demo while it's so these are all wallets that have 
>  registered with chappie so that when you go to do an operation 
>  like storing a credential or presenting a credential you will get 
>  an option to pick from among a number of different wallets so 
>  that's the first thing that chappie does the first feature that 
>  chappie has is it lets you register while it's so that.
> Manu Sporny:   You can pick from them later on.
> Manu Sporny:  Me pause there any questions on wallet 
>  registration.
> <utxodario> q Question - "Manage credentials" ... manage 
>  particular creds or ALL creds ??
> <pl> How does this get around the NASCAR problem?
> Kerri Lemoie:  Money I have a few questions but I wanted to make 
>  one clarification is that tell me if I'm wrong here but I think I 
>  might is that if I would register my wallet so it's not on this 
>  website it's just that I have this wallet and I would allow this 
>  well at tiebacks you access to chappie playground.
> Kerri Lemoie:   Okay I just.
> Kerri Lemoie:  It doesn't go at a playground and see a list of 
>  all it's instead they're all registered in the way like someone 
>  personally so you this would be say your your choice of your 
>  wallet that you're showing in the screenshot.
> Manu Sporny:  Yes that's right it's personalized to you it is 
>  your selection not the web site selection right so it's it's so 
>  Kerry is going to have a different set of wallets from like what 
>  I have in let's say that Phil is going to have a different set of 
>  wallets then me so this dialogue is basically showing you your 
>  wallets the ones that you prefer not the ones that the website 
>  prefers.
> Manu Sporny:   Dimitri I see you're here on the queue.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  To could carry these into it I wanted to 
>  clarify that as well when we say register with chappie we don't 
>  mean register with Chad be like the organization or anything like 
>  that it's each wallet registers with each browser and in fact 
>  with the combination of user browser so when when Manu and Terry 
>  say that it's it's your list so when you first go to any website.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   Site that uses credential Handler API.
> <pl> Thanks for the clarification Dmitri - that's the perspective 
>  I was looking for
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Empty because you the user in your browser has 
>  not encountered any wall instead of asking permission so just to 
>  clarify things.
> Manu Sporny:  Yeah that's an excellent clarification and now I'm 
>  thinking that I probably should have put a slide before this that 
>  explains how things work today so the the way things work today 
>  is like think about log in with Google or log in with Facebook 
>  when you go to a website they tell you what you're allowed to use 
>  to login right so that website basically says I support log in 
>  with Google you know login with.
> Manu Sporny:   Facebook log in with whatever and those are the 
>  only choices you get.
> Manu Sporny:  What chappie does is the opposite we prefer that 
>  the individual comes with the set of like digital wallets that 
>  they have in the website you know when it pops up the dialogue it 
>  shows them the things that they prefer not what the website 
>  prefers the one thing that we're concerned about one future that 
>  kind of chap he's concerned about and is trying to prevent is 
>  this future where effectively you go to website and they say you 
>  can use your.
> Manu Sporny:   Apple wallet or your.
> <kerri_lemoie> Slide 4: 
>  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/166wxPer_d_xN9afCdAO7PGYrVGlKYXP0gLZSKlejOVE/edit#slide=id.g1b0ca5e3588_0_16
> Manu Sporny:  That's it right so we're trying to empower 
>  individuals to have while it choice and that's kind of the whole 
>  thing behind chappie really good clarifications thank you Carrie 
>  and Dimitri okay I'm going to go on to the next item the next 
>  item has to do with selecting a digital wallet so when you go to 
>  do something like you go to a website and.
> Manu Sporny:   A website.
> Manu Sporny:  Through let's say you go to an issuer like a 
>  university and you go through a class and you're ready to pick up 
>  that credential what you earned during that class and putting in 
>  digital wallet at that point chappie is invoked it shows this 
>  wallet selection screen and says you know this website wants to 
>  store credentials which wallet do you want to put them in right 
>  that's effectively the question that chappies asking and then you 
>  select one of your wallets the same thing kind of.
> Manu Sporny:   It happens when you go to a verifier site so let's 
>  say you go.
> Manu Sporny:  And a job hiring site and it wants proof that you 
>  you know have a certain level of Education it'll say hey this 
>  website wants credential from you it wants an education 
>  credential from you of some kind again the chappie dialog pops up 
>  you select you know a wallet and appropriate wallet and then it 
>  takes you to this kind of screen on the right so meaning that it.
> Manu Sporny:   It takes you through.
> Manu Sporny:  Of like selecting the appropriate credential the 
>  the animation that you see on the right here is kind of a 
>  demonstration of both sending a credential in receiving a 
>  credential actually let me make sure that that's true.
> Manu Sporny:  This is credentialed pick up so someone has gone to 
>  in this is the US citizenship and Immigration Services kind of a 
>  demo they're using a digital wallet they go to the website 
>  they're picking up their additional permanent resident card 
>  chappie pops up ask you which while you want to put it in the 
>  user selects a wallet and then the wallet gives them a little 
>  more information about what they're about to store so the wallet 
>  pops up and this is the other really important thing with chappie 
>  is that we make sure that we.
> Manu Sporny:   / All of kind of the rendering and flow to the 
>  wallet so the wallet.
> Manu Sporny:  Help the individual make the best decision for them 
>  so so one of the things that's involved there is like Gathering 
>  consent so the wallet here is basically saying hey this website 
>  wants to store this digital permanent resident card why don't you 
>  take a look at it and make sure this is something that you want 
>  to put in your wallet right and so the user kind of expands it 
>  they take a look at it and they go yeah that looks pretty 
>  reasonable and they click store in and do that.
> Manu Sporny:   You can imagine scenarios.
> <pl> So the wallet renders the card's details BEFORE accepting 
>  into their wallet.  Very useful to have that 'check before store' 
>  feature
> Manu Sporny:  Are the wallet might go hey I don't know anything 
>  about this site and they're asking you for your permanent 
>  resident card or they're asking you for your credit card or your 
>  driver's license and you can go ahead and do this but I don't 
>  know who this website is right or the digital wallet can go hey 
>  like there's a big problem here like this website is a known you 
>  know fishing site.
> Manu Sporny:   In your about to send your digital credentials.
> Manu Sporny:  We suggest that you don't do that so there or the 
>  you know the wallet can do something like hey they're asking for 
>  proof of education and you've got like these three different ways 
>  you could send it over you know we suggest you pick this one 
>  which is you know protects your privacy the most or this one 
>  which you know shows you in the best light or you know things 
>  like that so the the point here is that.
> Manu Sporny:   We want to make sure.
> Manu Sporny:  When an individual picks a wallet that the 
>  individual has a relationship with that wallet they kind of know 
>  how it works and how it displays information to them and so we 
>  don't presume meaning chappie doesn't presume that the user 
>  interface should be rendered in any specific way make sure that 
>  the wallet gets to show the individual you know those other 
>  screens so that's basically wallet selection it's a part of 
>  chappie it's.
> Manu Sporny:   Built-in it's built into the into the.
> Manu Sporny:  Kind of flow of receiving credentials and 
>  presenting credentials let me pause there see if there any 
>  questions before I move on.
> Manu Sporny:  Yes yes it is possible in I mean this is you know 
>  one of those areas of debate and concern right so there have been 
>  a number so the answer your question David is yes that's 
>  completely possible if the website allows you to issue in the two 
>  different wallets or 22 different you know identifiers it's you 
>  can do that right chappie doesn't get in the way of that 
>  happening what has come up over the.
> Manu Sporny:   Ears is should.
> Manu Sporny:  Should we always display all the wallets in chappie 
>  like is there a way for us to say hey this website wants for 
>  example a permanent resident card from you you've got five 
>  wallets but there's only one of them that has a permanent 
>  resident card in there so shouldn't we make the interface easier 
>  or simpler by just showing one option because there's only one 
>  wallet that can actually answer the question that the.
> Manu Sporny:  That's an open topic right it's also kind of open 
>  of you know some of these wallets have this concept of like 
>  profiles or different like personas in should we expose that in 
>  the interface you know or not the good news here is that you know 
>  chappie allows us to kind of iterate through these various ways 
>  of doing things in those are very much kind of you know in the 
>  future we have to.
> Manu Sporny:   You know we.
> Manu Sporny:  That you know more kind of deployment feedback 
>  before we start implementing some of those features and some of 
>  those features are not without privacy drawbacks right the more 
>  you are able to interrogate the wallet or the more websites able 
>  to interrogate the wallet about what kind of credentials you 
>  might have in there the more the less privacy preserving we are 
>  right and so we tend to optimize on privacy first meaning never 
>  expose anything to the website that's a.
> Manu Sporny:   Asking for information you know they.
> Manu Sporny:  Just ask a question in from their point of view 
>  from the websites point of view it goes into You Know The Ether 
>  which is chappy and then chappie takes the question to the wallet 
>  and then the wallet decides how it wants to respond and then 
>  sends the response back to the website there so there are a lot 
>  of really interesting questions here around the interface here in 
>  what's the easiest thing to kind of show in youth.
> Manu Sporny:  Yes so today the second thing that you said is what 
>  we'd have to do they would be two transactions one to deliver 
>  your you know ID and the other one to deliver the the education 
>  credential from the other wallet clearly that's not ideal in 
>  we're trying to figure out if there is a better way of kind of 
>  collecting credentials from a variety of.
> Manu Sporny:   Of different wallets and sending them over in one.
> Manu Sporny:  It's very much I think in the active area of kind 
>  of like research right now.
> Manu Sporny:  Yeah that's exactly right yeah and and and I think 
>  that that that issue ends up becoming much more exacerbated when 
>  we have digital wallets when you have the concept of like you 
>  have many different credentials right but yeah.
> Manu Sporny:  Yep yep yep exactly yeah so there are trade-offs 
>  yeah excellent question David and their trait they're absolutely 
>  trade-offs here right the trade-off is that if we do this in 
>  multiple transactions then the flows more confusing or it can be 
>  more challenging to the individual right and so there have been 
>  suggestions like you know is there a way for us to aggregate the 
>  requests across a variety of different wallets in the amino the 
>  answer is yes of course it's technology there is a way.
> Manu Sporny:   A to do that but then we make the protocols more.
> <pl> You could have different credential wallets for your 
>  different personas, and credentials related to them. That's 
>  actually useful, at least as David notes, at this stage.
> <kerri_lemoie> slide 5: 
>  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/166wxPer_d_xN9afCdAO7PGYrVGlKYXP0gLZSKlejOVE/edit#slide=id.g1b0ca5e3588_1_578
> Manu Sporny:  For developers and then we you know could could 
>  have privacy implications as a result of that it's harder to 
>  develop in the ecosystem and so on and so forth so I think you 
>  know us as a community figuring out the right way to do that is 
>  still you know many years away but great question David okay so 
>  this is digital wallet selection okay so the other thing to 
>  understand about chappy is that.
> Manu Sporny:   We were trying to go for a solution that worked in 
>  every browser.
> Manu Sporny:  That that that exists right meaning that if you 
>  have a modern browser chappy works. It is implemented as what is 
>  called a polyfill and a polyfill is a bunch of JavaScript code 
>  that a web developer puts into their website so for example a 
>  university that wanted to issue verifiable credentials would have 
>  to include this one line of this one line of JavaScript in there.
> Manu Sporny:   Are University website a.
> Kerri Lemoie: Polyfill: 
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyfill_(programming)
> Manu Sporny:  Site that would want to receive verifiable 
>  credentials would have to include this one you know line of 
>  JavaScript and and of course right right against the the 
>  credential Handler API to store or receive credential so the 
>  point here is that for individuals they don't have to install a 
>  browser plug-in they don't have to use a very specific browser no 
>  matter what browser they're on it should work the downside to 
>  that.
> Manu Sporny:   That is that we are limited in what we can do.
> Manu Sporny:  As our technology and chappie has become kind of 
>  caught up in this whole like transition away from third-party 
>  cookies so for those of you that may not be aware third-party 
>  cookies are used by the ad industry to track people as they go 
>  from website to website they're viewed as kind of this really bad 
>  toxic thing on the web because it is what allows you know adds to 
>  kind of track what you're doing what you're looking at as you go 
>  from from site to site.
> Manu Sporny:   Site so all the bread.
> Manu Sporny:  Manufacturers are trying to eliminate third-party 
>  cookies and they're trying to put in Alternatives the good news 
>  here is that we saw this coming many years ago with chappie and 
>  chappie gracefully degrades when we don't have access to 
>  third-party cookies so what you see on the left here is the kind 
>  of fully integrated experience in chappie meaning that when 
>  you're using your web browser this screen just pops up and it's 
>  nice and integrated into.
> Manu Sporny:   Whatever workflow you're in you pick your wallet 
>  in you do.
> Manu Sporny:  Are things right the there's a bunch of Technology 
>  on how this works right there's a lot of kind of Technology 
>  gymnastics happening behind the scenes to make this work but 
>  sometimes but one of the things that we use or third-party 
>  cookies and when we don't have third-party cookies we have to 
>  fall back we have to do what's called degrading gracefully in the 
>  browser space so what and by degrade what we mean is we can no 
>  longer show this window in line.
> Manu Sporny:   We have to do a pop-up and when we do a pop up.
> Manu Sporny:  All of us.
> Manu Sporny:  This weird site called off and not I owe this is 
>  the chappie mediator site the UI is still the same inside the 
>  window but the window pops up right so on a mobile device it's 
>  not too bad of an experience in fact you kind of expect it on a 
>  mobile device but on like a desktop it's a bit weird right and so 
>  we're working with folks like Google's Chrome team to figure out 
>  how to get better native support for chappie but.
> Manu Sporny:   The point here is.
> <kerri_lemoie> Slide 6: 
>  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/166wxPer_d_xN9afCdAO7PGYrVGlKYXP0gLZSKlejOVE/edit#slide=id.g1b0ca5e3588_1_353
> Manu Sporny:  Chappie works on all modern browsers and so if you 
>  need to move credentials from point A to point B in your in the 
>  browser environment chappies going to work fairly well for you 
>  real quick we use chappy during the jobs for the future plugfest 
>  we demonstrated 81 different interoperability combinations a 
>  different wallets five web-based wallets in three native mobile 
>  apps so.
> Manu Sporny:   Chappie works for both web-based model.
> <kerri_lemoie> Slide 7: 
>  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/166wxPer_d_xN9afCdAO7PGYrVGlKYXP0gLZSKlejOVE/edit#slide=id.g856c91d9b3_0_22
> Manu Sporny:  It's a native mobile apps we integrated with a 
>  bunch of different issuers and we'll see a demo on how this works 
>  later on but this is kind of the list of companies that 
>  demonstrated interop using chappie in just to go through kind of 
>  you know the three steps again just to review so chappie allows 
>  credential Handler registration so it allows a website to say I 
>  want to be a digital wallet for you and manage your credentials.
> Manu Sporny:   What's the code.
> Manu Sporny:  He requests that a request to be a credential 
>  Handler for you you click allow or block and then when you click 
>  allow the credential Handler it's ready and that's the only thing 
>  you have to do to register when you go to store something you as 
>  the individual go to a website you go through some process that 
>  results in a verifiable credential that could be issued that 
>  website then uses.
> Manu Sporny:   Happy it makes an API call to.
> Manu Sporny:  Say I want to store this credential at which point 
>  your digital wallet pops up shows you an interface gets your 
>  consent and if you click yes I want to store it the website then 
>  gets a response back saying that the credential was stored 
>  successfully and if if you say no I don't want to store at the 
>  website gets a notification that you did not store the credential 
>  for some reason for whatever reason you know details go back to 
>  the website other than that credential was installed.
> Manu Sporny:   ORD the third thing is presentation so again 
>  pretty much.
> <kerri_lemoie> Slide 9: 
>  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/166wxPer_d_xN9afCdAO7PGYrVGlKYXP0gLZSKlejOVE/edit#slide=id.g856c91d9b3_0_59
> Manu Sporny:  You go to a website the website requests a bunch of 
>  verifiable credentials from you your digital wallet pops up and 
>  you select the credentials that you want to send over potentially 
>  and you know privacy-preserving ways the wallet gets consent from 
>  you and then it's sent to the the website in all of these flows 
>  it is really important to understand that the website that's 
>  requesting the information from you gets.
> Manu Sporny:   Zero visibility.
> Manu Sporny:  Your wallet or what you're doing in your wallet or 
>  any of that stuff so that's kind of it's really important again 
>  like we optimize very aggressively for privacy in none of your 
>  information is shared until you know you provide consent of some 
>  kind Nate I see you're on the queue.
> Nate Otto:  Yeah thanks I have a question about the scope of what 
>  a website can request at this step in the process within the 
>  education space we have I mean we have notably the open badges 
>  standard and I'll open badges credentials share the same type so 
>  if a website is trying to ask for a certain you know open badge 
>  that meets us more complex characteristic they probably don't.
> Nate Otto:   I want to just ask for hey give me any open badge 
>  you have.
> Nate Otto:  What types of scenarios are imagined within chappy 
>  for the type specific query Inge and how can other more specific 
>  communities layer onto this to enrich the possibility for how we 
>  understand like what different types of queries are possible when 
>  it's all open batch type credentials.
> Manu Sporny:  Got it yeah that's an excellent question Nate so so 
>  chappie is agnostic to the quarian response format chappies kind 
>  of like a dumb Communication channel it doesn't try to get in 
>  between you know the the language that's spoken from the 
>  requesting website and the digital wallet the short answer to 
>  your question today is there's a specification called the 
>  verifiable presentation request spec VPR.
> Manu Sporny:   In VPR has this mechanism in it.
> <kerri_lemoie> Verifiable Presentation Request: 
>  https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vp-request-spec/
> Manu Sporny:  And so what the website typically does is the 
>  website goes like the website that's requesting information says 
>  I want to see a credential that looks like this and it's a fairly 
>  freeform thing meaning it can say I want to see a credential that 
>  has a type of open badge and I want to see an achievement type of 
>  you know X or I want to see it have a field with a certain.
> Manu Sporny:   Date or I.
> Manu Sporny:  Have you know an issuer of a certain type so the 
>  short answer is the thank you Carrie for linking the PPR Square 
>  spec in there the VP R-Spec has mechanician mechanisms to do that 
>  kind of querying but I have to definitely warn people like it is 
>  very early days like query by example what we're trying for there 
>  is just like a really simple.
> Manu Sporny:   The mechanism for Developers.
> Manu Sporny:  And it may become you know badges may become like 
>  really really complex like you know learning records like full 
>  lers you know querying for like you know something in an alley 
>  are might be like a really complex query so I don't want to 
>  convey that like this is a solved Problem by any stretch of the 
>  imagination like today we can do like really simple checking 
>  against types in certain types of fields in I'm pretty certain 
>  like.
> Manu Sporny:   That'll work for like.
> Manu Sporny:  Use cases but it will not work for like a hundred 
>  percent so chappie is agnostic to the query format there are 
>  other presentation request you know formats out there like 
>  presentation exchange and there's no reason chappie can't also 
>  support presentation exchange as as a query you know response 
>  protocol so so hopefully Nee that that answered your question 
>  like we can potentially do the type of selection that you want to 
>  do today with verifiable.
> Manu Sporny:   Sanitation request but I don't think.
> <kerri_lemoie> Presentation Exchange: 
>  https://identity.foundation/presentation-exchange/
> Manu Sporny:  I don't think it's ever going to be a 100% solution 
>  I'm hoping that we don't have to go to like a super complex graph 
>  query language right or like people writing SQL queries or or 
>  unstructured database queries to get the data like to get the 
>  credentials that they need but if if that were to happen chappie 
>  can support it as a different query type did.
> Manu Sporny:   That answer your question.
> Nate Otto:  Yeah absolutely that's a good explanation of kind of 
>  the state of the art and I imagine we will see a wide variety of 
>  levels of support across different wallets and so nobody should 
>  expect to be able to have very rich querying and accurate 
>  responses broadly anytime soon cast a wide.
> Manu Sporny:  Yeah that's that's right yeah I think that's 
>  absolutely right I think that the best thing that we can do as a 
>  community is like maybe start depending on type data a little bit 
>  more so that you know so that people can be more accurate you 
>  know when the issue something and when they when they request 
>  something.
> Manu Sporny:  And it's Dimitri I think you're on the Queue next.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah I wanted to say a few more words about 
>  the clearing part so as not to mention its early days and well 
>  the query is limited at the moment we essentially have all of the 
>  query parameters that were likely to need developers mean you can 
>  request by type so you can say give me an open badge credential 
>  but you can also say give me some bad we could ensure we.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   With this particular achievement you can see.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Worse for example you can say I only want 
>  credentials from this issuer you can filter by credential subject 
>  ID so basically any sort of fields that you can picture in the in 
>  your credential how going Clary can contain that.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  A couple of really interesting other flexible 
>  things that the query can contain such as.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  User if you don't have any wallet registered 
>  with the browser here are some where you might want to look right 
>  so we it has a nice.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Warding workflow where users have no idea what 
>  job you have doesn't have a wallet or anything like that the 
>  first time they come to a website that ask for a credential they 
>  can on board onto a wallet right off of there so come to the 
>  university or some verifier and it says give me your class 
>  completion credential.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   But I don't have a wallet.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  I haven't gone and gotten the credential the 
>  the same query that is asking for the wallet can say okay if you 
>  don't have it here are some wallets that we the verify recommend 
>  but you can your few free to use other one but here are some the 
>  start you with the go get a wallets for the credential and come 
>  back and forth on sequential the other thing that chappy does 
>  that Mama hasn't come beside too much in this.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   Presentation but I.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  I think is.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Youthful if that it does did authentication so 
>  since it can ask for any sort of credential it can ask for what 
>  we think of as traditional verifiable credential but other things 
>  that it also can ask for is login and authentication and 
>  permission potential now that's an advanced topic we can go over 
>  that in another in another call but just.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   Just keep it in the back of your mind.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  This also enabled really nice really nicelogin 
>  flows and lastly what I already mentioned is that chappy itself 
>  is what's called a dumb pipe does not does not care what goes 
>  into the request.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And so there are several query specification 
>  of the you can include one of them do their final presentation 
>  request very linked to get the one from this presentation 
>  exchange and any others as they as they emerge in the community 
>  so it's important to remember that this.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah the credential Handler API mechanism can 
>  be used with all of the apis that are currently in the wallet 
>  ecosystems that could be used with DC API using Wallace it can be 
>  used with open-ended connects family of wallet and potentially 
>  can be used with did come back early.
> Manu Sporny:  Yep L all excellent points Dimitri absolutely Phil 
>  I think you're on the Queue next.
> Kerri Lemoie:  So before you go outside and tripped I just want 
>  to keep an eye on the time and know that Manu does have a demo 
>  and I want to make sure we can fit that into okay just keep an 
>  eye on it thanks yes.
> PL: Right and I can you hear can you hear me okay and I think 
>  David maybe first but David you want to go first.
> Kerri Lemoie:  You're the only person in the queue right now.
> PL: Okay okay I just wanted to clarify and because I think this 
>  is also the case and I want to make sure I'm right when the 
>  request is made by let's say the relying party for a particular 
>  credential filtered by whatever criteria are looking for the user 
>  that has the wallet holder can accept or not that joy that choice 
>  of response and can alter the response by putting in the 
>  credential they would like to share themselves is that an.
> PL:  accurate statement.
> Manu Sporny:  Yes I don't know if you mean like if the website 
>  just says I want an open badge credential and it's not specific 
>  about the type the individuals wallet is going to basically show 
>  them all they're open badges credentials in the individual can 
>  basically be like oh I want to send this one because I know what 
>  the site wants is that was that the question Phil.
> PL: That's that's one variation of the question the other is they 
>  request a credential with achievement X I don't want to send them 
>  the one with achievement expects I want to send them one with 
>  achievement why because I think it speaks more to my ability to 
>  respond to let's say the job requirements of the position I'm 
>  applying for.
> Manu Sporny:  That's interesting um in theory yes I don't know 
>  any wallets that allow that kind of like change in selection 
>  today but you're absolutely right that you know why shouldn't 
>  people be allowed to do that right if they want to.
> PL: I'm specifically thinking of things like someone says I'd 
>  like to see your full transcript I actually have a subset of my 
>  transcript which has the courses relevant to what I think the job 
>  is and not the courses that also include some you know things 
>  that are outside the domain of the job and which in my view might 
>  actually not be well received by the recipient and so I want to 
>  give him the one I want to show they can also say I you know I 
>  want the whole thing anyway and then it's my choice to decide.
> PL:  to complyor not.
> Manu Sporny:  That's right yeah yeah and you know my expectation 
>  in these scenarios is that at least as an ecosystem chappie and 
>  most of the wall it's optimized for privacy and individual 
>  consent and choice in that all lines up with what you're saying 
>  right thanks Phil okay real quick to the demo let me see can 
>  everyone see my screen right now.
> <kayode_ezike> Interesting point Phil! I would imagine that the 
>  site should design the query such that it is inclusive of as many 
>  qualifying credentials as possible.
> Manu Sporny:  Okay alright so the demo is basically I mean you 
>  know it's really kind of simple and straightforward I've got a 
>  wallet here this is the various wallet and it's got three 
>  credentials in it a permanent resident card alumni credential be 
>  ticket and then you know I can click on something to see the you 
>  know the credential in detail I also have this learned Card 
>  Wallet up and learned card did a fantastic job you know of 
>  integrating.
> Manu Sporny:   Is it all the other wallet vendors of integrating.
> Manu Sporny:  As you can see learn cards interface for their 
>  wallet is quite different from chappies in fact it's way more 
>  slick right so you look at it here this is your credential if you 
>  click view details the credential flips over and you can read the 
>  description issue or you know criteria really love what they've 
>  done with the interface here but these are the two wallets that 
>  you know I have chosen to use as an individual and so when I go 
>  to a website so this is a website that just.
> Manu Sporny:   Just issues credentials in I'm going.
> Manu Sporny:  Select the plugfest to credential this one here so 
>  this is a jobs for the future plugfest to credential I'm going to 
>  click generate verifiable credential and so it basically calls 
>  and back-end and issues the credential to me I can take a look at 
>  this you know it's a verifiable credential that's an open badge 
>  credential and then when I click store in wallet that is when 
>  chappie pops up so when I click store in wallet chappie pops up 
>  this interface and it says this.
> Manu Sporny:   Website wants to send.
> Manu Sporny:  You and it clearly outlines what the sent in the 
>  ascending website is and then it gives me two selections for my 
>  wallet I can pick the various wallet or the learn card app at the 
>  credential in it also by default just remembers your choice for 
>  the website you know in the future you'll probably continue to 
>  use the same wallet but in this case I don't want it to do that 
>  right I wanted to ask me every single time even in the future.
> Manu Sporny:   If if it auto selects a wallet I can go back and 
>  so now you.
> Manu Sporny:  I don't want to use a different wallet you know I 
>  know I use you know wallet a ninety percent of the time in this 
>  website but this time I want to use while it be speaking to what 
>  you mentioned David and then I basically select the wallet and 
>  then the wall its interface pops up again like we chappie totally 
>  defers to the wallet to show the interface this is the wallet 
>  rendering the interface where I can see the details of the 
>  credential I'm about to pick up and when I click store it's 
>  stored and then I'm sent back to.
> Manu Sporny:   To the website that I was on so if I go to my 
>  wallet see there were three credentials before.
> Manu Sporny:  Refresh my wallet now I should be able to see for 
>  credentials in there including the new one that I just picked up 
>  this jobs for the future plugfest credential right so that's me 
>  picking it up in one wallet I can do the same process again so 
>  pick the plugfest to wallet but this time I'm going to store it 
>  in my learn card wallet so I picked the learn card app which is 
>  then going to put up its own interface so this is the learn car.
> Manu Sporny:   And while it's.
> <kerri_lemoie> CHAPI is also being added to some mobile wallets.
> Manu Sporny:  And they're asking me if I want to accept or reject 
>  this credential I can kind of view the details here and then 
>  click accept to accept the credential and then learn card 
>  successfully stored it in the learn card wallet so that's that's 
>  it like that you know it's fairly straightforward there's you 
>  know not too much excitement you know going on there jumping back 
>  really quickly because I know we're almost out of time.
> Manu Sporny:   There's a chappie.
> Manu Sporny:  In the slide deck feel free to look through it 
>  we've been at this for a while now it's taken a lot of time to 
>  figure out the right way to get this integrated into the browser 
>  such that it works across all desktop browsers all tablet 
>  browsers old mobile app browsers you would not believe the number 
>  of variations of browsers out there so it's taken us a while to 
>  get it working 100% across-the-board more recently we've been 
>  able to demonstrate interop going really well using chappie but I 
>  think the.
> Manu Sporny:   Most interesting.
> Manu Sporny:  Going to happen in the chappie roadmap over the 
>  next couple of months to years so this year chappy is going into 
>  production it's they're going to be data dedicated data center 
>  teams running chappie so if you want to use chappie in production 
>  it is definitely the year to start doing that we're adding better 
>  integration for Native apps so that native apps show up in the 
>  chappie selector right now they don't but we want them to we are 
>  adding in some variations.
> Manu Sporny:   Ation of the oid.
> Manu Sporny:  Port so why DC for VCI and oid see for VP we are 
>  working with Google's Chrome team on you know native bars are 
>  experiments and integration there we expect some of that native 
>  browser code to be shipped it is already shipping fed seems 
>  already shipping in the latest version of Google Chrome so we're 
>  expecting a couple of new features that we might be able to use 
>  to make the chappie experience better so that we don't have to 
>  gracefully degrade we can.
> Manu Sporny:   Have a really nice native in browser experience 
>  and then.
> Manu Sporny:  25 And Beyond continued you know upgrades and 
>  improvements okay one of the just real quick and then back over 
>  to you carry one of the most exciting things that's happening 
>  right now is that the browser teams are starting to look at 
>  chappy and go hey you know what we think we can map it to some of 
>  the Native stuff that we're working on in the FED CM work which 
>  is built into the browser you'll note that they're kind of 
>  account selection screen looks very similar.
> Manu Sporny:   Her to the chappy while its selection screen to 
>  the.
> Manu Sporny:  You know say.
> Manu Sporny:  Go to came and presented to the ccg last week and 
>  said that he feels like all of these things that are highlighted 
>  could be aligned their links in the presentation deck to chappie 
>  and the polyfill and all that kind of stuff and with that back 
>  over to you Kerry.
> <pl> Great presentation Manu!
> Kerri Lemoie: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-edu/
> Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you Maya that was excellent I know you fit 
>  in a lot into this this one hour or less but thank you for coming 
>  today everyone keep an eye on your inbox if you're not on the vcg 
>  mailing list I you can join it here we're actually working that 
>  we see AG co-chairs are working with digital promise and learning 
>  economy foundation on a badge where you can try this out for 
>  yourself so keep your eyes open for that in the near future and 
>  you can give it a shot.
> Kerri Lemoie:   And see what you think about it thanks everybody 
>  hope you have a great week.
> Manu Sporny:  Thanks for having me have a good one everyone.
> <pl> Cheers
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Susan do you have a question.
> <taylor_(lef)> Thank you Manu, Kerri and all :)
> 
>