Re: The world of credential engine

Thanks for sharing this. I see that there are some seriously bloated VCs in
the examples here.
I would love to have a more hands on discussion on this, so how can we
schedule a call on this?
A call that benefits the community but does not necessarily have 30
participants :P

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 2:15 PM Marty Reed <Marty.Reed@randasolutions.com>
wrote:

> Snorre,
>
>
>
> I love your thinking about the more complex credential!  There was
> discussion in the VC-EDU workgroup earlier last year as some
> implementations simply cannot utilize a single assertion model for their
> more complex assertions.
>
>
>
> I agree with many of the statements being made and I’ll draw your
> attention to the CLR 1.0 standard at IMS Global here:
> https://www.imsglobal.org/spec/clr/v1p0/ We have currently convened a
> workgroup moving CLR 2.0 to be compliant with the VC data standard while
> supporting multiple assertions in a single credential.
>
>
>
> There is an open source project at IEEE,
> https://opensource.ieee.org/ilr/ocp which has already shoehorned the CLR
> into a VC, while not elegant, it does exist and is leveraging not only CLR,
> but also OpenBadges, CTDL and the CASE framework with OpenSALT, while
> publishing a ToIP compliant credential.
>
>
>
> Hope this is helpful.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Marty
>
>
> Marty Reed | Chief Executive Officer
> RANDA Solutions | 2555 Meridian Blvd | Suite 300 | Franklin, TN 37067
> office 615 467 6387 | direct 615 915 5446 | fax 615 613 0517
>
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> *From:* Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 12, 2022 4:20 AM
> *To:* public-vc-edu@w3.org
> *Cc:* Deb Everhart <deverhart@credentialengine.org>; Stuart Sutton <
> stuartasutton@gmail.com>; Jeanne Therese Kitchens <
> jkitchens@credentialengine.org>
> *Subject:* Re: The world of credential engine
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/01/2022 08:39, Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin wrote:
>
> Thanks alot for this feedback guys! Helps alot!
>
>
>
> Im well versed in the VC and DID space, its just when it comes to a valid
> structure of the education credential I have no one to discuss with :D
>
> Its worth mentioning that im working on the African continent and we need
> to provide learning as well as insight on how things can work.
>
> I saw I great presentation by your colleague Irene Mutuzo about your work
> at the T3 Annual Conference last month.
>
> One of the problems of being leaders in a field is that you go beyond the
> limits of what is standard, which I think is where you are. So when you say
> you want to provide a record of all the modules taken by a student you are
> in transcript territory, and W3C VC hasn't quite got there yet. You may
> recall Mark Leuba of IMS presenting at the T3 conference on their
> Comprehensive Learner Records and their Wellspring project. That may well
> be the way forward.
>
> CTDL has terms for describing Courses (what you call Modules) and Programs
> (what you call Courses) and the requirements (in terms of Courses,
> Assessments, work experience and other things) that must be satisfied for
> someone to complete a Program and earn a Credential. CTDL also has Pathways
> that show how Courses and other learning experiences, pre-existing
> credentials and assessments can be strung together to meet credential
> requirements. Where the credential requirements are flexible there can be
> many possible pathways that lead to them -- indeed each student may take a
> different pathway.
>
> Modelling the programs and pathways isn't always easy, but the handbook
> <https://credreg.net/ctdl/handbook> should help. Working out the details
> of how to model a specific case is probably not best done on a public email
> list -- you may have noticed the there's a need to clarify language which
> isn't always easy on email, and we would probably try the patience of other
> people on the list. Perhaps we could organise a call sometime.
>
> Since the Credential Engine does not itself deal with any individual's
> data, CTDL doesn't have many terms for relating and individual to a
> pathway, course or program they took or credential they earned, but it is
> designed to work with other vocabularies (such as schema.org, VC, or
> transcript standards like CLR) that do (or could) provide these terms. Then
> there is the question of how much of the detail goes in to a VC -- as you
> say the examples so far are all quite simple atomistic claims. Which is why
> we need this community group.
>
> Hope this helps, Phil.
>
>
>
> All these works with standardization, Im trying to find examples of how
> people have used the data models, in complex ways but all I find is this:
> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed-models/. Which dont hold that complex
> models that I potentially want. Because examples explains how certain
> combos have been used to build up the credentials.
>
>
>
> F.ex right now, im trying to represent a simple course accreditation. What
> that holds is some course info which is straight forward, but it also holds
> certain modules that they have gone through.
>
> These modules are not standardized as of now, but is something the issuers
> have control over and I want to represent as flexible building blocks.
>
> But from https://credreg.net/, I cannot deduct clearly how this can be
> built up.
>
> I have looked at: https://credreg.net/ctdlasn/terms/#CompetencyFramework,
> with modules as https://credreg.net/ctdlasn/terms/#Competency.
>
> But it was not clear to me how one build this up into a valid structure.
>
> Also, what types of classes: https://credreg.net/ctdl/terms#classes that
> can contain this framework.
>
>
>
> If anyone has an example using https://json-ld.org/playground/ that would
> be great!
>
>
>
> Will the guidebooks help out increasing my learning around this?
> https://credreg.net/ctdl/handbook
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 5:59 PM Phillip D. Long <phil@rhzconsulting.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Snorre: these are great questions, and you can see from the responses
> there are really knowledgeable people on this list who can help!  I have
> one comment to offer in reference to your question about what constitutes a
> verifiable credential and who defines them. There is the technical
> structure of a VC in JSON-LD format that the data model for VCs describes
> from the work done by W3C VC community (VC Data Model v1.1
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/>). It describes what you can do,
> not necessarily what should do, for an educational VC.
>
>
>
> The data standards organizations like IMSGLOBAL (in the US primarily) or
> W3C VC-EDU, are working to apply the VC data model to the representation of
> credentials for the education community. IMSGLOBAL is currently working to
> represent the single assertion badge, OBv2.x, as a verifiable credential
> through their OBv3 Workgroup, of which Kerri and I on this thread are
> members.  Similarly they are working to move the Comprehensive Learner
> Record (CLR) that is intended to replace the structure of a transcript for
> a degree program, and extend it to enable it to carry information about
> single assertion accomplishments (aka badges), along with competency
> framework descriptors, into a structure that follows the W3C VC data model
> v1.1 rules. That effort is underway in the CLRv2 workgroup, and it
> leverages the single assertion OBv3 as an atomic building block for the
> CLRv2 transcript, as well.
>
>
>
> These standards bodies are providing a template for the more traditional
> expressions of credentials they issue, e.g.,  a degree, a certificate, or
> license, in interoperable representations that can be cryptographically
> signed to make them tamper evident. But as you noted, if you follow the
> general guidelines for the VC data model, you can create a VC of your own
> design, if there isn’t already a suitable existing domain-based standard to
> use.
>
>
>
> The VC-EDU task force of the W3C VC CCG is where this work is underway for
> education related credentials. IMSGLOBAL wants to be the standard for
> educational credentials and has filled that niche in the US prior to the
> emerge of VCs.  The ability to contribute to their standards development or
> even see the work in progress they do in their development requires that
> you pay to become a member of their organization. VC-EDU, on the other
> hand,  is open to anyone with an interest and their work is freely
> accessible and available during the development process, as well as
> thereafter. As Kerri Lemoie is the chair of that task force, and doing a
> great job the chief technical “cat herder”, I’m sure she along with all of
> us sharing thes interests would welcome you’re joining the effort underway
> there (https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed/)
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>   Phil
>
>
>
> *Phillip Long, Ph.D*.,
>
> T3 Innovation Network, LER Network Facilitator
>
> e:  <phil@rhzconsulting.com>phil@rhzconsulting.com,
>
> SNS: Twitter/Telegram @RadHertz
>
> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd
>
> —
>
> *Senior Scholar, Georgetown University*
>
> Center for New Designs in Learning & Scholarship (CNDLS)
>
> e: pl673@georgetown.edu
>
> —
>
> *Open Software Fellow*
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2022, at 7:38 AM, Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin <
> snorre@diwala.io> wrote:
>
>
>
> This is fantastic feedback! Thanks.
>
> What is the best fora for similar questions to be discussed?
>
> Does it exist github foras or any discussion foras for VC edu space? Or
> just credential engine?
>
>
>
> I have some follow up questions on this now, if that is alright!
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 1:07 PM Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> Yes, it should. One factor to be aware of is that there is a difference in
> what is covered by Credential in Credential Engine compared to Verifiable
> Credentials. Credential Engine describes the credentials (and related
> things like learning opportunities, skills...) offered by educational
> institutions, training organizations etc, whereas Verifiable Credentials
> are about the credentials that an individual has. They are closely related,
> and totally complementary, like different sides of the same coin. You can
> think of VCs as equivalent to the piece of paper that says someone has a
> degree, lots of people can have such a piece of paper for the same degree;
> Credential Engine will provide a description of that degree, of which there
> is only one. If you know the Open Badge standard, Credential Engine aligns
> with the Badge Class, not the assertion that someone has been awarded to
> badge.
>
>
>
> Thanks for sharing, yeah that was why I was asking that they might go
> together as hand in a glow. But thanks for detailing.
>
>
>
> I have an example micro credential here in JSON playground:
> https://tinyurl.com/3czurwnm
>
>
>
> Is this technically valid or who decides that?
>
> No, that's not valid. You have used ceterms:MicroCredential as a property
> when it is defined as a class (so it must be used as a value for type).
>
> You need something more like:
>
>   "credentialSubject": {
>     "id": "did:web:matthew's_did",
>     schema:hasCredential: {
>       "type": "ceterms:MicroCredential";
>       "ceterms:name": "Test micro",
>       "ceterms:description": "This will describe the credential"
>     }
>
>   }
>
> (NB: the merits of using of schema:hasCredential in a VC is the sort of
> thing we need to discuss in this group)
>
>
>
> Yeah I have seen that and was hoping it might be a fluke that it was used.
> To me it does not make much sence that a VC contains another container for
> a credential they have.
>
> The VC itself is a credential of a credential I have, I believe.
>
> So from my JSON-LD understanding, i can type something inside the
> credentialSubject, and it will understand what is the type, plus the parent
> type, credentialSubject fields.
>
> But since alot of these other data points have ID, we have a conflict, and
> need to wrap them into a container.
>
> But this example dont have a conflict and could technically be type
> defined at the root level of this credentialSubject, just as this example:
> https://tinyurl.com/2p9cydzp
>
>
>
> Or what is the history of hasCredential?
>
>
>
>
>
> Why do I have to use ceterms:name, infront of name when it is wrapped in a
> micro credential type?
>
> Is that becaus the JSON-ld of https://credreg.net/, might not follow same
> format when doing schema.org?
>
>
>
> I am not quite sure I understand your question properly. Do you mean why
> do you need the "ceterms:" prefix? That identifies the namespace, so that
> we know you mean the CTDL version of name not the schema.org or FOAF
> version of name (not that there any real difference in this case). It's a
> common requirement when JSON-LD builds on more than one vocabulary, see
> section 4.1.5 of the JSON-LD spec,
> https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-syntax/#compact-iris Often this is hidden
> in the JSON-LD context file.
>
>
>
> Yeah my questions might come from my lack of JSON-LD knowledge. So this is
> more JSON-LD question
>
> Again this example: https://tinyurl.com/2p9cydzp
>
> I thought by typing the credentialSubject, it would be possible to use the
> "childrens" types directly, like email and identifier.
>
> But that might be a flat hiearchy, and since email and identifier is
> directly available on schema.org, it has no relation to its type?
>
> And that everything comes from context, and if I want to have flatter
> attributes, I would have to explicitly define them like this example:
> https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-syntax/#example-using-vocabularies?
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
>
> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
>
> +47 411 611 94
> www.diwala.io
> <http://www.diwala.io/>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
>
> Co-Founder & CTO, Diwala
>
> +47 411 611 94
> www.diwala.io
> <http://www.diwala.io/>
>
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> --
>
> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil
> CETIS LLP <https://www.cetis.org.uk>: a cooperative consultancy for
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-- 

*Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin*
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+47 411 611 94
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