Re: [IMSC] Thoughts re: issue-312 -- itts:forcedDisplay

> What do you mean by "application" in this context?

The entity that is instructing the presentation processor to render
the IMSC document.

> I also don't know what parameter means in this context,
> e.g., what does it mean vis-a-vis a TTML parameter, i.e.,
> an attribute expressing a TTML parameter.

It is not a TTML parameter, as in a ttp:*, but instead a state
variable passed to the presentation processor instructing it to render
or not non-forced content, like a function argument in a procedural
language.

> I am opposed to a one-off solution to a special case of the conditional
>  content problem. And the forcedDisplay feature is exactly such a special case.

Can you think of a generic solution that would reduce to a single
attribute controlling the rendering of forced content? If so, we could
consider using it in IMSC.

Thanks,

-- Pierre

On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 10:56 PM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Pierre-Anthony Lemieux <pal@sandflow.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Glenn,
>>
>> Thanks for the feedback.
>>
>> > no, [forcedDisplayModeParameter] should not be a parameter, in which
>> > it would go into some
>> > parameter namespace, but should be a metadata attribute,
>> > ittm:forcedDisplay
>>
>> forcedDisplayModeParameter != itts:forcedDisplay.
>> forcedDisplayModeParameter would be a parameter passed by the
>> application to the processor, not a parameter within the document.
>
>
> What do you mean by "application" in this context? I also don't know what
> parameter means in this context, e.g., what does it mean vis-a-vis a TTML
> parameter, i.e., an attribute expressing a TTML parameter.
>
>>
>>
>> > in other words, TTML will remain silent on any presentation semantics of
>> > such an attribute;
>>
>> How would interoperability be achieved?
>
>
> By defining a standard mechanism for expressing conditional content
> contingent on external processor state, e.g., selected language, whether
> display of some content is forced or not, etc.
>
> I am opposed to a one-off solution to a special case of the conditional
> content problem. And the forcedDisplay feature is exactly such a special
> case.
>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -- Pierre
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 7:05 PM, Pierre-Anthony Lemieux
>> > <pal@sandflow.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi all,
>> >>
>> >> During our last call, I noted two concerns with the itts:forcedDisplay
>> >> feature as currently drafted.
>> >>
>> >> (a) the semantics of the itts:forcedDisplay feature are not
>> >> sufficiently specified
>> >> (b) the representation of itts:forcedDisplay as an attribute is not
>> >> desirable
>> >
>> >
>> > that should read as a style attribute
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> To address (a), below is proposed prose:
>> >>
>> >> """
>> >> The presentation processor SHALL accept an optional boolean parameter
>> >> called forcedDisplayModeParameter, whose value may be set by the
>> >> application. If not set, the value of forcedDisplayModeParameter shall
>> >> be assumed to be equal to "false".
>> >
>> >
>> > no, it should not be a parameter, in which it would go into some
>> > parameter
>> > namespace, but should be a metadata attribute, ittm:forcedDisplay
>> >
>> > i'm not sure why you wish to lengthen the name unnecessarily
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If the value of forcedDisplayModeParameter is "true", a content
>> >> element with a itts:forcedDisplay computed value of "false" shall be
>> >> assumed to have a tts:visibility computed value equal to "hidden",
>> >> even if tts:visibility is otherwise set to "true".
>> >> """
>> >
>> >
>> > now, this is again placing style/presentation semantics on this metadata
>> > attribute, which is inapropriate
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The idea is to essentially ignore the itts:forcedDisplay attribute
>> >> unless otherwise specifically requested by the application.
>> >
>> >
>> > i'm not sure what "requested by the application" means here
>> >
>> >>
>> >> This also
>> >> clarifies that itts:forcedDisplay has "no effect on content layout or
>> >> composition, but merely determines whether composed content is visible
>> >> or not."
>> >
>> >
>> > if that is the purpose, then the tts:visibility property should be used
>> > and
>> > therefore there is no need for a new forcedDisplay attribute
>> >
>> >>
>> >> As next step, I plan to create examples.
>> >>
>> >> Re: (b), I am not comfortable rejecting a solution that users have
>> >> devised and implemented based on actual use cases and in the absence
>> >> of specific guidance and/or prohibition in TTML 1.0.
>> >
>> >
>> > if those users expect that the TTWG would simply adopt a solution as a
>> > fait
>> > accompli, then they are naive; an appropriate process would have been to
>> > bring use cases and requirements to the TTWG first, not bring a solution
>> > as
>> > a given
>> >
>> > at this point, I think the best that can be hoped for IMSC is to define
>> > a
>> > metadata attribute ittm:forcedDisplay which is described as a hint that
>> > the
>> > associated content is intended to be selected as a candidate for display
>> > by
>> > a higher level protocol (outside the scope of formally defined TTML
>> > processing); in other words, TTML will remain silent on any presentation
>> > semantics of such an attribute;
>> >
>> > on the other hand, we may choose in TTML2 to define a conditional
>> > content
>> > mechanism similar to the SMIL or SVG switch element, that could address
>> > this
>> > use case
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >>
>> >> -- Pierre
>> >>
>> >
>
>

Received on Sunday, 22 June 2014 00:07:56 UTC