- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 17:37:52 +0000
- To: Timed Text Working Group <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CEF48DE0.17175%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Available at: http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
09 Jan 2014
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
nigel, glenn, +41.22.749.aaaa, tmichel, frans-EBU, Mike,
pal, Plh, [Microsoft]
Regrets
Chair
nigel
Scribe
nigel
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]next few months
2. [5]IANA registration
3. [6]Charter
4. [7]Raised Issues
5. [8]Pending Review Issues
6. [9]Actions pending review
7. [10]aob
* [11]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 09 January 2014
<scribe> scribeNick: nigel
next few months
[12]http://www.w3.org/2013/10/timed-text-charter.html
[12] http://www.w3.org/2013/10/timed-text-charter.html
nigel: charter says LC for TTML Live in March, TTML2 and IMSC
in April
... Want to make sure we have proper transparency of flow from
requirements to solution, as highlighted (amongst other issues)
by debate on issue-286 in December
... Does anyone want to point at existing working practices for
achieving this?
glenn: Wouldn't conclude that lack of resolution on 286 meant
it was an improper way to proceed. Actually quite typical for
requirements and solutions to get iterated and refined.
... We've never, other than formal requirements capture process
in 2003, done this more formally. That's too much at this
stage.
... Agree that there are still some questions about the
requirement in that particular case.
nigel: Where does the Change Proposal documentation fit into
this?
... i.e. the change proposals on the wiki.
glenn: In most of those cases we had a good idea of the
requirements.
nigel: propose to collate requirements and functionality etc
into CPs in January, then iterate through solution proposals
and editing in Feb and March, for LC in April.
... General bugs and issues can be handled ad hoc within that
timeframe.
<plh> this looks good to me btw
nigel: Everyone happy with that?
all: no objections
glenn: not unhappy with that.
nigel: in that case let's aim for an agenda on first Feb
meeting where we can go through the CPs and push on to
solutions and editing.
IANA registration
nigel: made progress since last meeting
mike: Got additional feedback from the IANA expert. Seemed like
nitpicking at first but on further investigation IETF did issue
new guidelines last year.
... We had a disconnect and hadn't picked from one of the 4
enumerated encoding values that are now required.
... I agree with the proposed language and suggest we accept it
and then we can complete the registration process.
[13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2014Jan/0000.
html
[13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2014Jan/0000.html
mike: offers to circulate this opinion on the reflector.
<plh> +1 to go on with it
nigel: any objections to proceeding with this or want more
review time?
all: silent
nigel: we're good to go with this then.
action-88?
<trackbot> action-88 -- Mike Dolan to Make sure the TTML media
type is properly registered for Issue-175. -- due 2013-10-31 --
OPEN
<trackbot>
[14]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/88
[14] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/88
plh: need an errata for TTML1. Propose glenn completes this and
plh issues the errata with the new appendix.
glenn: entire appendix in errata?
plh: yes, makes it easier to point to.
tmichel: I can process the updated TTML1 into an errata.
plh: yes, publish as a whole section.
tmichel: is this errata normative?
plh: yes, otherwise we'd have to publish a 3rd edition
action-88: glenn to edit, send to tmichel who will publish
errata.
<trackbot> Notes added to action-88 Make sure the TTML media
type is properly registered for Issue-175..
action-88: Reassigning to Glenn to make the edits as per
[15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2014Jan/0000.
html
[15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2014Jan/0000.html
<trackbot> Notes added to action-88 Make sure the TTML media
type is properly registered for Issue-175..
Charter
plh: still waiting for feedback on the document licence from
the past objectors to an open licence. Expecting this within a
week.
... Within 2-3 weeks we should be in a position to send to the
AC, unless we get a strong push-back. In that case I'll talk to
David and may propose we simply abandon the licence change.
action-248
<trackbot> action-248 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Add atsc to the
ttml charter -- due 2013-12-12 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[16]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/248
[16] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/248
plh: haven't done this.
action-253?
<trackbot> action-253 -- Nigel Megitt to Send plh updated
wording for the ebu paragraph -- due 2013-12-19 --
PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[17]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/253
[17] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/253
close action-253
<trackbot> Closed action-253.
nigel: there were other proposed organisations to add. I
propose not adding more as the other suggestions would not add
anything concrete.
mike: adding more organisations for which we don't have a point
of contact makes it hard for us to fulfil our requirement to
contact all of them.
... We can reach out any time we feel like?
... I am the contact for ATSC.
plh: even if we don't get responses from all then we don't have
to chase.
nigel: I propose to close off the addition of further external
groups at this stage.
... HbbTV was one specific organisation mentioned - as you've
said not having them on the charter doesn't prevent us from
contacting them.
... has had private conversation with pal re charter section on
IMSC
... i.e. in Scope, 1.6
... Wording currently is "Publish a text and an image profile
of the Timed Text Markup Language (TTML) appropriate for
worldwide subtitling applications, including dialog language
translation, content description, captions for deaf and hard of
hearing, etc., using TTML Text and Image Profiles for Internet
Media Subtitles and Captions as basis."
... I have a concern that this is too consistent with the scope
of TTML2 and the part of the workflow that it relates to.
... It's not suitable globally for archive and exchange, but is
well suited to distribution.
mike: hesitant to narrow the scope as many organisations are
authoring in IMSC and archiving
... Don't see any benefit in carving out archive for the use of
this profile.
nigel: want to be inclusive of the core goals rather than
exclusive of other parts of the workflow.
mike: IMSC isn't universal but does have widespread coverage.
nigel, mike, pal, glenn: discussion on charter wording covering
intended purpose of IMSC, potential inclusion of more universal
requirements, need to be sufficiently open in charter
definition to avoid having to potentially recharter, and
confusion as to the problem with current wording.
scribe: The fact that this concern is raised so late in the
process was noted.
nigel: still has some concern that the charter description is
too broad but will not raise to the level of objection for now.
tmichel: Has a small issue against the charter. In the previous
one there was a deliverable of a mapping between TTML and
HTML5+CSS and we had agreed to include that in TTML2 spec.
... We agreed on this but the charter doesn't mention it.
Should we specify this or not?
nigel: it is there in Scope.
tmichel: The second issue is related to this. I agreed with plh
that it would be very nice to have this mapping in 2014 to
align with the release of HTML5.
... My worry is that if it's in TTML2 spec it won't arise this
year.
glenn: It could do, in the form of a working draft or LC even.
I think we should be flexible on this right now. I'm working on
this mapping as we speak and expect it to come along in the
next few months.
tmichel: I agree with you that because the mapping is in the
scope but not the deliverables we are flexible in how we
release it. It could be a note or part of TTML2.
... I agree we can go for this as it stands.
Raised Issues
issue-299?
<trackbot> issue-299 -- dur must be greater than zero -- raised
<trackbot>
[18]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/299
[18] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/299
glenn: I noticed that some test files had zero durations in
them, which highlighted a potential improvement, to require
durations>0.
... This raises a backward compatibility issue that TTML1
documents may have zero durations, though you could say it's
implied by the SMIL reference.
... We could add a clarifying note to TTML1 as an errata to
make this clearer.
... In TTML2 the language can be made normative.
nigel: Any objections to doing this?
all: no objections.
<glenn> ACTION: glenn to add errata note for ttml1 pointing at
constraint in SMIL prohibiting dur of zero, add normative text
to ttml2 [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-254 - Add errata note for ttml1
pointing at constraint in smil prohibiting dur of zero, add
normative text to ttml2 [on Glenn Adams - due 2014-01-16].
Pending Review Issues
issue-231?
<trackbot> issue-231 -- Individual character rotation --
pending review
<trackbot>
[20]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/231
[20] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/231
nigel: pal raised this - can the solution be confirmed?
pal: has not reviewed it because I didn't know it was there to
be reviewed!
<scribe> ACTION: pal to review issue-231 solution [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-255 - Review issue-231 solution [on
Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2014-01-16].
<glenn> [22]https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my
[22] https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my
issue-259?
<trackbot> issue-259 -- Define "closest" -- pending review
<trackbot>
[23]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259
[23] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259
issue-259: Glenn: it doesn't always make sense to round up,
sometimes round down works better, e.g. zIndex
<trackbot> Notes added to issue-259 Define "closest".
issue-259: pal: I will include some specific text proposals.
<trackbot> Notes added to issue-259 Define "closest".
pal: IMSC and CFF-TT uses round half up for integer pixel
positions in some text, so there's precedence for this.
<scribe> ACTION: pal to review wording on issue-259 proposed
solution and suggest alternate wording for consistency with
existing profile documents [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-256 - Review wording on issue-259
proposed solution and suggest alternate wording for consistency
with existing profile documents [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux -
due 2014-01-16].
Actions pending review
action-141?
<trackbot> action-141 -- Nigel Megitt to Call for Action to
identify discrepancies in TTML 1.0 on different profiles. --
due 2013-02-14 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[25]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141
[25] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141
issue-162?
<trackbot> issue-162 -- update standalone profile documents --
open
<trackbot>
[26]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/162
[26] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/162
glenn: I had interpreted the title to mean something else
because there's already another action to fix this.
actino-225?
action-225?
<trackbot> action-225 -- Glenn Adams to Work with plh to update
standalone profile docs for ttml1se -- due 2013-10-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[27]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/225
[27] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/225
glenn: Action-141 can be closed when Action-225 is closed.
... or closed now as a duplicate of 225
... I was going to update the standalone doc in place but I
should check that there's no backward compatibility issue.
nigel: What's the impact on anyone who occasionally makes use
of the current standalone doc?
glenn: their software might break. However the specification is
normative not the standalone document. We wouldn't be doing
something new to update the standalone document with an
occasional impact.
... We can put a comment into the new document to advise those
looking at it that it has changed.
action-238?
<trackbot> action-238 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Follow up on
issue-295 -- due 2013-12-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[28]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/238
[28] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/238
pal: would be good to have glenn's input on this one.
action-243?
<trackbot> action-243 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Edit
dsinger's proposed wording which captures the intent. -- due
2013-12-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[29]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/243
[29] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/243
<plh> [30]http://cldr.unicode.org/
[30] http://cldr.unicode.org/
mike: Proposal in this issue is simply to reference CLDR, and
that's insufficient to express the empirical examination of
subtitles created worldwide.
pal: The intention is to create the union of CLDR and other
characters.
nigel: we discussed this at TPAC with W3C i18n expert and came
up with the course of action that has resulted in the current
edited draft.
pal: I'm not surprised that CLDR doesn't include all characters
useful in subtitling and captioning.
... What this group could consider doing is adding further
locale information in the form of characters used for
subtitling and captioning.
... (to CLDR)
mike: Maybe we could do this through W3C i18n. We have some
information that Unicode has not understood so it would be good
to communicate that.
pal: proposes that this be done after working draft.
mike: volunteers to do this.
aob
mike: action-250 closed
close action-250
<trackbot> Closed action-250.
<tmichel> bye all
trackbot, status
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: glenn to add errata note for ttml1 pointing at
constraint in SMIL prohibiting dur of zero, add normative text
to ttml2 [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: pal to review issue-231 solution [recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: pal to review wording on issue-259 proposed
solution and suggest alternate wording for consistency with
existing profile documents [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
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1.138 ([35]CVS log)
$Date: 2014-01-09 17:29:37 $
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[34] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[35] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
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Default Present: nigel, glenn, +41.22.749.aaaa, tmichel, frans-EBU, Mike
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Present: nigel glenn +41.22.749.aaaa tmichel frans-EBU Mike pal Plh [Mic
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Found Date: 09 Jan 2014
Guessing minutes URL: [37]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html
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Received on Thursday, 9 January 2014 17:38:24 UTC