Re: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)

Added second note under Example Fragment - TTML Body in Section 1.2.

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/default/ttml10/spec/ttaf1-dfxp.html#example


On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:43 AM, Richard, Francois
<francois.richard@hp.com>wrote:

>  Completely agree. ****
>
> Then, I would recommend to update TTML  spec on w3c to illustrate this.
> Because current examples in this spec are misleading…****
>
> Thank you for your  reply.****
>
> Francois****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Andreas Tai [mailto:tai@irt.de]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 03, 2013 1:23 PM
> *To:* John Birch; David Ronca; Richard, Francois
> *Cc:* public-tt@w3.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)****
>
>  ** **
>
> As as far as I can see TTML content elements like div, p and span are much
> more used to represent display semantics (derived from XSL:FO) than an
> inherent semantic structure of the content that should be displayed.
>
> I think that you could achieve a structure that is closer to the semantics
> of a linguistic paragraph with this pattern:
>
> <p xml:id="p1">
>   <span xml:id="subtitle1" begin="0.76s" end="3.45s">It seems a paradox,
> does it not,</span>
>   <span xml:id="subtitle2" begin="5.0s" end="10.0s">that the image formed
> on<br/>the Retina should be inverted?</span>
> </p>
>
> So you are not really forced to split grammatical sentences over multiple
> paragraphs.
>
> Best regards,
> Andreas
>
> Am 03.07.2013 11:33, schrieb John Birch:****
>
> Hi David, Richard,****
>
>  ****
>
> Yes, this is an interesting aspect of TTML.****
>
>  ****
>
> TTML uses the <p> element from a presentation perspective. At any point in
> time, the <p> elements hold the content that is active at that moment.****
>
>  ****
>
> However, from a narrative perspective it would be preferable that the <p>
> element would hold content that is related from a narrative structure
> perspective.****
>
> This is something that I would hope we can embrace in EBU-TT Part 5. In
> Part 5 it is possible that the timing may be subservient to the narrative…
> i.e. the timing might be considered a notation against a structured text
> content rather than having the timing dominate the document as in current
> TTML implementations.****
>
>  ****
>
> Best regards,****
>
> John****
>
>  ****
>
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> *From:* David Ronca [mailto:dronca@netflix.com <dronca@netflix.com>]
> *Sent:* 03 July 2013 08:32
> *To:* public-tt@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)****
>
>  ****
>
> The purpose of captioning is to align the text with the spoken dialog and
> the video.  The paragraph is split across multiple 'p' elements presumably
> because that is how it aligns with the spoken dialog.  Even sentences are
> split.  Consider the sentence "Three were given to the Elves, immortal,
> wisest...fairest of all beings." in the opening of FOTR.  If I remember the
> narration timing correctly (deliberate pauses), the split might look
> something like this:****
>
>  ****
>
> <p> Three were given to the Elves</p>****
>
> <p> immortal,</p>****
>
> <p> wisest...</p>****
>
> <p>fairest of all beings.</p>****
>
>  ****
>
> David****
>
>  ****
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 12:10 AM, Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org> wrote:***
> *
>
> Could someone help Richard here ?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 12:37:07 +0000
> From: Richard, Francois <francois.richard@hp.com>
>
>
> I work for Hewlett-Packard (actually based in Grenoble) and my group
> charter is to deploy Translation tools and technologies within HP.
> We recently received some TTML files that we need to process through our
> TMS  (Translation management system). I had a look at it and I am bit
> surprised by the use of paragraph element. In the sample file I received
> (see snippet below), the notion of linguistic "paragraph" is not preserved,
> resulting in what could considered as concatenation or artificial split of
> grammatical sentences:
>         <p begin='00:00:02.130' end='00:00:04.290' style="4">The print
> industry clearly is shrinking</p>
>         <p begin='00:00:04.290' end='00:00:06.310' style="4">and shrinking
> substantially.</p>
>
> I checked http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-ttaf1-dfxp-20130131/ and I am
> surprised to see that it is there too:
>
>     <p xml:id="subtitle1" begin="0.76s" end="3.45s">
>       It seems a paradox, does it not,
>     </p>
>     <p xml:id="subtitle2" begin="5.0s" end="10.0s">
>       that the image formed on<br/>
>       the Retina should be inverted?
>     </p>
>
> Is this done on purpose? I understand there is a need to support some
> "timing" information, but I do not understand why defining these attributes
> at the <p> element level, forcing grammatical sentences to be split across
> multiple "paragraphs"....
> Can you help?
>
> François Richard
> Globalization Tec Lead
> Digital Publishing and Operations
>
> francois.richard@hp.com<mailto:francois.richard@hp.com>
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>
>
>
>
>
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