RE: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)

Completely agree.
Then, I would recommend to update TTML  spec on w3c to illustrate this. Because current examples in this spec are misleading...
Thank you for your  reply.
Francois

From: Andreas Tai [mailto:tai@irt.de]
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 1:23 PM
To: John Birch; David Ronca; Richard, Francois
Cc: public-tt@w3.org
Subject: Re: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)

As as far as I can see TTML content elements like div, p and span are much more used to represent display semantics (derived from XSL:FO) than an inherent semantic structure of the content that should be displayed.

I think that you could achieve a structure that is closer to the semantics of a linguistic paragraph with this pattern:

<p xml:id="p1">
  <span xml:id="subtitle1" begin="0.76s" end="3.45s">It seems a paradox, does it not,</span>
  <span xml:id="subtitle2" begin="5.0s" end="10.0s">that the image formed on<br/>the Retina should be inverted?</span>
</p>

So you are not really forced to split grammatical sentences over multiple paragraphs.

Best regards,
Andreas

Am 03.07.2013 11:33, schrieb John Birch:
Hi David, Richard,

Yes, this is an interesting aspect of TTML.

TTML uses the <p> element from a presentation perspective. At any point in time, the <p> elements hold the content that is active at that moment.

However, from a narrative perspective it would be preferable that the <p> element would hold content that is related from a narrative structure perspective.
This is something that I would hope we can embrace in EBU-TT Part 5. In Part 5 it is possible that the timing may be subservient to the narrative... i..e. the timing might be considered a notation against a structured text content rather than having the timing dominate the document as in current TTML implementations.

Best regards,
John

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From: David Ronca [mailto:dronca@netflix.com]
Sent: 03 July 2013 08:32
To: public-tt@w3.org<mailto:public-tt@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)

The purpose of captioning is to align the text with the spoken dialog and the video.  The paragraph is split across multiple 'p' elements presumably because that is how it aligns with the spoken dialog.  Even sentences are split.  Consider the sentence "Three were given to the Elves, immortal, wisest...fairest of all beings." in the opening of FOTR.  If I remember the narration timing correctly (deliberate pauses), the split might look something like this:

<p> Three were given to the Elves</p>
<p> immortal,</p>
<p> wisest...</p>
<p>fairest of all beings.</p>

David

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 12:10 AM, Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org<mailto:tmichel@w3.org>> wrote:
Could someone help Richard here ?

Thanks.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 12:37:07 +0000
From: Richard, Francois <francois.richard@hp.com<mailto:francois.richard@hp..com>>


I work for Hewlett-Packard (actually based in Grenoble) and my group charter is to deploy Translation tools and technologies within HP.
We recently received some TTML files that we need to process through our TMS  (Translation management system). I had a look at it and I am bit surprised by the use of paragraph element. In the sample file I received (see snippet below), the notion of linguistic "paragraph" is not preserved, resulting in what could considered as concatenation or artificial split of grammatical sentences:
        <p begin='00:00:02.130' end='00:00:04.290' style="4">The print industry clearly is shrinking</p>
        <p begin='00:00:04.290' end='00:00:06.310' style="4">and shrinking substantially.</p>

I checked http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-ttaf1-dfxp-20130131/ and I am surprised to see that it is there too:

    <p xml:id="subtitle1" begin="0.76s" end="3.45s">
      It seems a paradox, does it not,
    </p>
    <p xml:id="subtitle2" begin="5.0s" end="10.0s">
      that the image formed on<br/>
      the Retina should be inverted?
    </p>

Is this done on purpose? I understand there is a need to support some "timing" information, but I do not understand why defining these attributes at the <p> element level, forcing grammatical sentences to be split across multiple "paragraphs"....
Can you help?

François Richard
Globalization Tec Lead
Digital Publishing and Operations

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