Re: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)

As as far as I can see TTML content elements like div, p and span are 
much more used to represent display semantics (derived from XSL:FO) than 
an inherent semantic structure of the content that should be displayed.

I think that you could achieve a structure that is closer to the 
semantics of a linguistic paragraph with this pattern:

<p xml:id="p1">
   <span xml:id="subtitle1" begin="0.76s" end="3.45s">It seems a 
paradox, does it not,</span>
   <span xml:id="subtitle2" begin="5.0s" end="10.0s">that the image 
formed on<br/>the Retina should be inverted?</span>
</p>

So you are not really forced to split grammatical sentences over 
multiple paragraphs.

Best regards,
Andreas

Am 03.07.2013 11:33, schrieb John Birch:
>
> Hi David, Richard,
>
> Yes, this is an interesting aspect of TTML.
>
> TTML uses the <p> element from a presentation perspective. At any 
> point in time, the <p> elements hold the content that is active at 
> that moment.
>
> However, from a narrative perspective it would be preferable that the 
> <p> element would hold content that is related from a narrative 
> structure perspective.
>
> This is something that I would hope we can embrace in EBU-TT Part 5. 
> In Part 5 it is possible that the timing may be subservient to the 
> narrative... i.e. the timing might be considered a notation against a 
> structured text content rather than having the timing dominate the 
> document as in current TTML implementations.
>
> Best regards,
>
> John
>
> *John Birch | Strategic Partnerships Manager *|*Screen**
> *Main Line : +44 1473 831700 | Ext : 270 | Direct Dial : +44 1473 834532
> Mobile : +44 7919 558380 | Fax : +44 1473 830078
> John.Birch@screensystems.tv <mailto:John.Birch@screensystems.tv> | 
> www.screensystems.tv <http://www.screensystems.tv> | 
> https://twitter.com/screensystems <https://twitter.com/screensystems>
>
> *Visit us at
> SMPTE conference & exhibition, Stand G35, Sydney Exhibition Centre, 
> Darling Harbour, 23-26th July*
>
> *P**Before printing, think about the environment*
>
>
> *From:*David Ronca [mailto:dronca@netflix.com]
> *Sent:* 03 July 2013 08:32
> *To:* public-tt@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)
>
> The purpose of captioning is to align the text with the spoken dialog 
> and the video.  The paragraph is split across multiple 'p' elements 
> presumably because that is how it aligns with the spoken dialog.  Even 
> sentences are split.  Consider the sentence "Three were given to the 
> Elves, immortal, wisest...fairest of all beings." in the opening of 
> FOTR.  If I remember the narration timing correctly (deliberate 
> pauses), the split might look something like this:
>
> <p> Three were given to the Elves</p>
>
> <p> immortal,</p>
>
> <p> wisest...</p>
>
> <p>fairest of all beings.</p>
>
> David
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 12:10 AM, Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org 
> <mailto:tmichel@w3.org>> wrote:
>
> Could someone help Richard here ?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 12:37:07 +0000
> From: Richard, Francois <francois.richard@hp.com 
> <mailto:francois.richard@hp.com>>
>
>
> I work for Hewlett-Packard (actually based in Grenoble) and my group 
> charter is to deploy Translation tools and technologies within HP.
> We recently received some TTML files that we need to process through 
> our TMS  (Translation management system). I had a look at it and I am 
> bit surprised by the use of paragraph element. In the sample file I 
> received (see snippet below), the notion of linguistic "paragraph" is 
> not preserved, resulting in what could considered as concatenation or 
> artificial split of grammatical sentences:
>         <p begin='00:00:02.130' end='00:00:04.290' style="4">The print 
> industry clearly is shrinking</p>
>         <p begin='00:00:04.290' end='00:00:06.310' style="4">and 
> shrinking substantially.</p>
>
> I checked http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-ttaf1-dfxp-20130131/ 
> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-ttaf1-dfxp-20130131/> and I am surprised 
> to see that it is there too:
>
>     <p xml:id="subtitle1" begin="0.76s" end="3.45s">
>       It seems a paradox, does it not,
>     </p>
>     <p xml:id="subtitle2" begin="5.0s" end="10.0s">
>       that the image formed on<br/>
>       the Retina should be inverted?
>     </p>
>
> Is this done on purpose? I understand there is a need to support some 
> "timing" information, but I do not understand why defining these 
> attributes at the <p> element level, forcing grammatical sentences to 
> be split across multiple "paragraphs"....
> Can you help?
>
> François Richard
> Globalization Tec Lead
> Digital Publishing and Operations
>
> francois.richard@hp.com 
> <mailto:francois.richard@hp.com><mailto:francois.richard@hp.com 
> <mailto:francois.richard@hp.com>>
> T +33 (0)4 76 14 48 71 <tel:%2B33%20%280%294%2076%2014%2048%2071>
> F +33 (0)4 76 14 43 05 <tel:%2B33%20%280%294%2076%2014%2043%2005>
>
> [HP]<http://www.hp.com/>
>
> Please print thoughtfully
>
>
>
>
>
> This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. 
> If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, copy, disclose 
> or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If 
> you have received this message in error, please advise the sender 
> immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for 
> your cooperation. Screen Subtitling Systems Ltd. Registered in England 
> No. 2596832. Registered Office: The Old Rectory, Claydon Church Lane, 
> Claydon, Ipswich, Suffolk, IP6 0EQ
>   ­­ 


-- 
------------------------------------------------
Andreas Tai
Production Systems Television IRT - Institut fuer Rundfunktechnik GmbH
R&D Institute of ARD, ZDF, DRadio, ORF and SRG/SSR
Floriansmuehlstrasse 60, D-80939 Munich, Germany

Phone: +49 89 32399-389 | Fax: +49 89 32399-200
http: www.irt.de | Email: tai@irt.de
------------------------------------------------

registration court&  managing director:
Munich Commercial, RegNo. B 5191
Dr. Klaus Illgner-Fehns
------------------------------------------------