Re: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:23 AM, Andreas Tai <tai@irt.de> wrote:

>  As as far as I can see TTML content elements like div, p and span are
> much more used to represent display semantics (derived from XSL:FO) than an
> inherent semantic structure of the content that should be displayed.
>
> I think that you could achieve a structure that is closer to the semantics
> of a linguistic paragraph with this pattern:
>
> <p xml:id="p1">
>   <span xml:id="subtitle1" begin="0.76s" end="3.45s">It seems a paradox,
> does it not,</span>
>   <span xml:id="subtitle2" begin="5.0s" end="10.0s">that the image formed
> on<br/>the Retina should be inverted?</span>
> </p>
>
> So you are not really forced to split grammatical sentences over multiple
> paragraphs.
>

Andreas is correct. TTML is neutral on whether <p/> (or any other element)
is used to express a semantic or a presentation unit. It is up to the
author to decide. If the author wishes, they can add a custom ttm:role
attribute to denote an intended semantic.

As Andreas shows above, one can put timing on <span/>s (that can contain
<br/>) in order to preserve <p/> as a linguistic unit.


>
> Best regards,
> Andreas
>
> Am 03.07.2013 11:33, schrieb John Birch:
>
>  Hi David, Richard,****
>
> ** **
>
> Yes, this is an interesting aspect of TTML.****
>
> ** **
>
> TTML uses the <p> element from a presentation perspective. At any point in
> time, the <p> elements hold the content that is active at that moment.****
>
> ** **
>
> However, from a narrative perspective it would be preferable that the <p>
> element would hold content that is related from a narrative structure
> perspective.****
>
> This is something that I would hope we can embrace in EBU-TT Part 5. In
> Part 5 it is possible that the timing may be subservient to the narrative…
> i.e. the timing might be considered a notation against a structured text
> content rather than having the timing dominate the document as in current
> TTML implementations.****
>
> ** **
>
> Best regards,****
>
> John****
>
> ** **
>
> *John Birch | Strategic Partnerships Manager | Screen
> *Main Line : +44 1473 831700 | Ext : 270 | Direct Dial : +44 1473 834532
> Mobile : +44 7919 558380 | Fax : +44 1473 830078
> John.Birch@screensystems.tv | www.screensystems.tv |
> https://twitter.com/screensystems****
>
> *Visit us at
> SMPTE conference & exhibition, Stand G35, Sydney Exhibition Centre,
> Darling Harbour, 23-26th July*
>
> *P** Before printing, think about the environment*
>
> *From:* David Ronca [mailto:dronca@netflix.com <dronca@netflix.com>]
> *Sent:* 03 July 2013 08:32
> *To:* public-tt@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)****
>
> ** **
>
> The purpose of captioning is to align the text with the spoken dialog and
> the video.  The paragraph is split across multiple 'p' elements presumably
> because that is how it aligns with the spoken dialog.  Even sentences are
> split.  Consider the sentence "Three were given to the Elves, immortal,
> wisest...fairest of all beings." in the opening of FOTR.  If I remember the
> narration timing correctly (deliberate pauses), the split might look
> something like this:****
>
> ** **
>
> <p> Three were given to the Elves</p>****
>
> <p> immortal,</p>****
>
> <p> wisest...</p>****
>
> <p>fairest of all beings.</p>****
>
> ** **
>
> David****
>
> ** **
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 12:10 AM, Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org> wrote:***
> *
>
> Could someone help Richard here ?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Question on Timed Text Markup Language (TTML)
> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 12:37:07 +0000
> From: Richard, Francois <francois.richard@hp.com>
>
>
> I work for Hewlett-Packard (actually based in Grenoble) and my group
> charter is to deploy Translation tools and technologies within HP.
> We recently received some TTML files that we need to process through our
> TMS  (Translation management system). I had a look at it and I am bit
> surprised by the use of paragraph element. In the sample file I received
> (see snippet below), the notion of linguistic "paragraph" is not preserved,
> resulting in what could considered as concatenation or artificial split of
> grammatical sentences:
>         <p begin='00:00:02.130' end='00:00:04.290' style="4">The print
> industry clearly is shrinking</p>
>         <p begin='00:00:04.290' end='00:00:06.310' style="4">and shrinking
> substantially.</p>
>
> I checked http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-ttaf1-dfxp-20130131/ and I am
> surprised to see that it is there too:
>
>     <p xml:id="subtitle1" begin="0.76s" end="3.45s">
>       It seems a paradox, does it not,
>     </p>
>     <p xml:id="subtitle2" begin="5.0s" end="10.0s">
>       that the image formed on<br/>
>       the Retina should be inverted?
>     </p>
>
> Is this done on purpose? I understand there is a need to support some
> "timing" information, but I do not understand why defining these attributes
> at the <p> element level, forcing grammatical sentences to be split across
> multiple "paragraphs"....
> Can you help?
>
> François Richard
> Globalization Tec Lead
> Digital Publishing and Operations
>
> francois.richard@hp.com<mailto:francois.richard@hp.com>
> T +33 (0)4 76 14 48 71
> F +33 (0)4 76 14 43 05
>
> [HP]<http://www.hp.com/>
>
> Please print thoughtfully
>
>
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If
> you are not the intended recipient you must not use, copy, disclose or take
> any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have
> received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by
> reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation.
> Screen Subtitling Systems Ltd. Registered in England No. 2596832.
> Registered Office: The Old Rectory, Claydon Church Lane, Claydon, Ipswich,
> Suffolk, IP6 0EQ
>    ­­
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------
> Andreas Tai
> Production Systems Television IRT - Institut fuer Rundfunktechnik GmbH
> R&D Institute of ARD, ZDF, DRadio, ORF and SRG/SSR
> Floriansmuehlstrasse 60, D-80939 Munich, Germany
>
> Phone: +49 89 32399-389 | Fax: +49 89 32399-200
> http: www.irt.de | Email: tai@irt.de
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> registration court&  managing director:
> Munich Commercial, RegNo. B 5191
> Dr. Klaus Illgner-Fehns
> ------------------------------------------------
>
>