RE: ISSUE-10 First party definition, ISSUE-60, ACTION-?

I think it is a ridiculous attempt to immunize some of the worst tracking
technologies on the Internet.  The definition should read:

 

"A first party is content served directly from the domain visible in the
address bar.  Any content or scripts which require a call to a remote server
not within the visible domain are defined as third parties." Or words to
that effect. (and yes that includes the Google analytics AJAX calls back to
Google - for Heather).  But instead of taking my definition, just use the
RFC definition.

 

The TPWG loses more of its integrity on a daily basis - this latest move is
just unbelievable.

 

Alexander Hanff

 

From: Heather West [mailto:heatherwest@google.com] 
Sent: 27 February 2013 17:53
To: public-tracking@w3.org Group WG
Subject: Re: ISSUE-10 First party definition, ISSUE-60, ACTION-?

 

An alternative version of the definition that Justin circulated, with a few
edits but same general approach:

 

In a specific network interaction, a party with which the user interacts is
the <dfn>First Party</dfn>. In most cases on a traditional web browser, the
first party will be the party that owns and operates the domain visible in
the address bar. The party that owns and operates or has control over an
(branded/labelled?) embedded widget, search box, or similar service with
which a user intentionally interacts is also considered a First Party.  If a
user merely mouses over, closes, or mutes such content, that is not
sufficient interaction to render the party a first party. Non-First Party
entities on the site are considered Third Parties.

 

Let us know what you think!

 

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Alexander Hanff
<a.hanff@think-privacy.com> wrote:

The issue in question is not whether or not people will be aware that by
clicking on a Like button it will post something to their timeline - that is
not the purpose of Do Not Track.  The issue in question is whether or not
someone accepts or consents to Facebook tracking their online behaviour if
they click on a like button and do so across all web sites where those
buttons exists - furthermore, just clicking on the button is not an accurate
description of how this tracking works.

 

My understanding is that if a user is currently logged in to Facebook or has
any Facebook cookies on their machine, merely loading a page with the "Like"
button script embedded is enough for Facebook to be able to track that user
across sites with the widget.

 

This redefinition is not within the scope of TPWG  - TPWG's purpose is not
to redefine existing RFCs (1st/3rd party definition has existed in RFC for
ooo about a decade or more) - TPWG's purpose is to come up with a standard
and compliance specification to deal with 3rd party tracking consent
mechanisms.

 

How any of you can sit there with a straight face and say it is ok to
redefine a technical term that has existed for over a decade is beyond me.
This "new" definition goes against the very premise of DNT which is to send
a signal about not being tracked; by making some of the most invasive and
widespread tracking technologies immune to the standard simply by redefining
1st party to put them out of scope, is reprehensible.

 

Alexander Hanff

 

From: Justin Brookman [mailto:justin@cdt.org] 
Sent: 27 February 2013 17:34
To: public-tracking@w3.org
Subject: Re: ISSUE-10 First party definition, ISSUE-60, ACTION-?

 

There is no consensus definition of "first party" --- there are three
separate ones in the text.  I believe they all say much the same thing and I
was merely trying to merge them. :)

I believe the group is at consensus that if someone clicks a "Like" button,
then it is reasonable to expect that Facebook is going to receive
information that falls outside the scope of Do Not Track (namely, that the
user 'likes' some particular page or pbject, and now FB can display that in
Newsfeed and Timeline consistent with the user's privacy settings).  If
anyone in the working group disagrees with that, feel free to speak up.
Alexander, if you want to comb through the mailing list to see our previous
exhaustive discussions on this, you may find them informative.  Or you may
not, I don't know.

However, you do, obliquely, get to a relevant point --- that perhaps the
definition should include be revised to say "clearly branded" before
"embedded widget" in order to make sure that the user knows what she's
clicking on.  I believe the group had discussed something similar
previously.  I would be fine with a discussion on what constitutes clear
branding (I would say things like the Like, Tweet, and +1 buttons qualify)
in an appendix.



Justin Brookman
Director, Consumer Privacy
Center for Democracy & Technology
tel 202.407.8812
justin@cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org
@JustinBrookman
@CenDemTech

On 2/27/2013 11:01 AM, Alexander Hanff wrote:

Why is the group second guessing what consumers think?  The definition of
first party already exists, there is no need to redefine it in a light which
makes it easier for exceptions to be made for tracking widgets.

 

Many users will not be remotely aware that a "Like" button is actually
hosted by Facebook, they would assume it is hosted on the domain they are
visiting.  To assume otherwise is absurd and further weakens the validity of
this DNT process.

 

Alexander Hanff

 

From: Justin Brookman [mailto:justin@cdt.org] 
Sent: 27 February 2013 16:52
To: public-tracking@w3.org
Subject: ISSUE-10 First party definition, ISSUE-60, ACTION-?

 

Peter asked me to try to combine the three definitions of "first party" in
the current text in consultation with Heather.  The existing definitions are
all very close, and I don't think there are major substantive disagreements
here.  Anyway, here is my best effort (Heather provided feedback, but she's
not around this morning, so I don't know if she blesses this):

 

In a specific network interaction, if a party can reasonably conclude with
high probability that the user intends to communicate with it, that party is
a <dfn>first party</dfn>.  In most cases on a traditional web browser, the
first party will be the party that owns and operates the domain visible in
the address bar.  A first party also includes a party that owns and operates
an embedded widget, search box, or similar service with which a user
intentionally interacts.  If a user merely mouses over, closes, or mutes
such content, that is not sufficient interaction to render the party a first
party. 

 

Rob Sherman is separately working on text regarding multiple first parties.

 

Chris Pedigo and Vinay Goel are separately working on text regarding data
processors that stand in the shoes of their controllers, party-wise.

 
 
-- 
Justin Brookman
Director, Consumer Privacy
Center for Democracy & Technology
tel 202.407.8812
justin@cdt.org
http://www.cdt.org
@JustinBrookman
@CenDemTech

 





 

-- 
Heather West | Google Policy | heatherwest@google.com | 202-643-6381