Re: Poll text call: final text by 28 September

Many thanks Mike:  I appreciate the clarification and look forward to the discussion.  I think that the analytics and targeting system are increasingly combined.  For example, products such as Adsafe's API are being used to help make targeting decisions, and the greater visibility into user behavior made possible by viewable impressions adds further details.  So we do need to clarify the distinction between the analytic research use and the targeting function and the role of DNT.  See you soon.

Jeff




Jeffrey Chester
Center for Digital Democracy
1621 Connecticut Ave, NW, Suite 550
Washington, DC 20009
www.democraticmedia.org
www.digitalads.org
202-986-2220

On Oct 1, 2012, at 10:46 AM, Mike Zaneis wrote:

> Jeff,
>  
> I understand how someone not intimately involved in the 3MS project could conflate this effort around measurement with the work of the W3C group, so perhaps we could arrange for a more detailed presentation for interested parties.  Generally speaking, 3MS has to do with ad delivery, i.e. did the ad load completely, where on the page did it appear, and the creation of common lexicon to better jibe with traditional TV measurement, it has nothing to do with audience acquisition, i.e. who saw the ad.  These methods would clearly be a part of the analytics and reporting discussion the group is having.
>  
> I’ve seen the same mistake made when discussing the IAB Quality Assurance Guidelines, which focuses on inventory categorization, not audience acquisition. 
>  
> Mike Zaneis
> SVP & General Counsel
> Interactive Advertising Bureau
> (202) 253-1466
>  
> Follow me on Twitter @mikezaneis
>  
>  
> From: Jeffrey Chester [mailto:jeff@democraticmedia.org] 
> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 1:23 PM
> To: Aleecia McDonald
> Cc: public-tracking@w3.org (public-tracking@w3.org); John Simpson
> Subject: Re: Poll text call: final text by 28 September
>  
> Aleecia:
>  
> I think the emergence of so-called viewable impressions and how they are used for targeting, such as the 3MS initiative 
>  involving IAB, Google, Yahoo, Facebook and many others raises new questions about the role research plays in the tracking/targeting function: http://www.measurementnow.net/benefits.html; for member list:  http://www.measurementnow.net/whos-involved.html
>  
> We need to understand how recent developments in measurement will be impacted for those users wishing to use DNT:1  
> I also was not at Boston, which likely did not have much NGO participation at the time with the group.  So I look forward to hear on this list and at the f2f about the relationship of viewable impressions, etc.
>  
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> Jeff
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Jeffrey Chester
> Center for Digital Democracy
> 1621 Connecticut Ave, NW, Suite 550
> Washington, DC 20009
> www.democraticmedia.org
> www.digitalads.org
> 202-986-2220
>  
> On Sep 30, 2012, at 12:45 PM, John Simpson wrote:
> 
> 
> Thank you, Aleecia.  I was not at at the F2F in Boston, joining the group in October, so I wasn't aware of this conversation.  I drew my definite two-week retention limit based on my analogy to the workplace I mentioned and also the fact that it was the protocol retention limit proposed in the EFF/Mozilla/Stanford proposal.
>  
> I thought it was still under active consideration by a significant number of members in the WG and thought it should be included as an option for that reason.  If you believe the group generally has moved past that point and that the two options you offer provide the best opportunity for reaching consensus, I can *live* with that.
>  
> Cheers,
> John
>  
>  
> ----------
> John M. Simpson
> Consumer Advocate
> Consumer Watchdog
> 2701 Ocean Park Blvd., Suite 112
> Santa Monica, CA,90405
> Tel: 310-392-7041
> Cell: 310-292-1902
> www.ConsumerWatchdog.org
> john@consumerwatchdog.org
>  
> On Sep 29, 2012, at 10:25 PM, Aleecia M. McDonald wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi John,
>  
> Thank you for your suggested new text before the deadline.
>  
> While we can add this as an option, I would like to remind you that in Boston we heard that aggregate reports of one month spans are an exceedingly common use case for this data. The rationale for six weeks was to add some extra time beyond a rolling four week period, just in case something needs to be re-run or otherwise needs a little extra time. During our discussions in Boston, I remember Peter being able to live with six weeks as reasonable for privacy, and many in industry able to live with six weeks as reasonable time for processing. We were exceedingly close to consensus on this point.
>  
> Two weeks' notice for leaving a job is an interesting concept, but is also a cultural construct. I hear that in some European countries, 3 or 6 months' notice is common. I am not convinced this is a relevant metric for our work here on log files.
>  
> If you have new information to present to the group with substantive reasons for why two weeks rather than six weeks, this would be a good time to discuss that information. 
>  
>             Aleecia
>  
>  
> On Sep 28, 2012, at 4:13 PM, John Simpson <john@consumerwatchdog.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Sure, David.
>  
> As I understand it what we're talking about here are log files and that sort of thing that are passively collected with any Internet transaction.  If DNT is enabled they ought not be retained in unidentifiable form.  The question: What is a reasonable time frame for that?
>  
> I came up with two weeks based on an analogy to the sort of common workplace understanding about leaving a job.  You give two weeks notice when you quit. You give the boss two weeks two get things in order upon your departure.  Here the user  is giving the server two weeks notice to get things in order to honor his or her explicit preference about not being tracked.
>  
>  
> Best,
> John
>  
> ----------
> John M. Simpson
> Consumer Advocate
> Consumer Watchdog
> 2701 Ocean Park Blvd., Suite 112
> Santa Monica, CA,90405
> Tel: 310-392-7041
> Cell: 310-292-1902
> www.ConsumerWatchdog.org
> john@consumerwatchdog.org
>  
> On Sep 28, 2012, at 3:49 PM, David Wainberg wrote:
> 
> 
> John,
> 
> It might be helpful to provide your basis for suggesting the two week period as a viable option.
> 
> -David
> 
> 
> On 9/28/12 6:33 PM, John Simpson wrote:
> Aleecia,
>  
> I would offer this option:
>  
> Option 3:
>  
> Operators MAY retain data related to a communication in a third-party context for up to TWO weeks. During this time, operators may render data unlinkable (as described above) or perform processing of the data for any of the other permitted uses
>  
> ----------
> John M. Simpson
> Consumer Advocate
> Consumer Watchdog
> 2701 Ocean Park Blvd., Suite 112
> Santa Monica, CA,90405
> Tel: 310-392-7041
> Cell: 310-292-1902
> www.ConsumerWatchdog.org
> john@consumerwatchdog.org
>  
> On Sep 28, 2012, at 3:12 PM, David Wainberg wrote:
> 
> 
> Aleecia,
> 
> In reviewing this to provide feedback, it occurs to me that it relies on the definition of unlinkable, which is still very much up for debate. How can companies weigh in on these options without understanding what the requirements actually are? We should postpone this poll until we define unlinkable so that companies can give realistic feedback regarding the time and effort needed to meet the requirements.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> David
> 
> 
> On 9/25/12 6:20 PM, Aleecia M. McDonald wrote:
> 
> From the call on 12 September, we discussed topics where we have increasing clarity on options for permitted uses. I want to make sure we have the text right to reflect our options prior to doing a decision process with a poll calling for objections, which is responsive to Ian's feedback. We also want to move quickly, as Roy suggests.
>  
> Please propose specific alternative text if you believe that the two texts given below do not reflect the options before us by Friday, 28 September. We will briefly review these texts on the call tomorrow, just to make sure no one misses anything, and here we are on the mailing list, for those who cannot make the call.
>  
> Aleecia
>  
> -----
> Log files: issue-134
> ----
>  
> This normative text fits into the section on Third Party Compliance, subsection 6.1.1.1, Short Term Collection and Use, <http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-compliance.html#short-term>. We will also want non-normative text, and have some suggested, but that will be clearer once we have the normative text settled. (Options for definitions of unlinkable data are in section 3.6, Unlinkable Data, <http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-compliance.html#def-unlinkable>.)
>  
> Option 1:
> Operators MAY retain data related to a communication in a third-party context for up to 6 weeks. During this time, operators may render data unlinkable (as described above) or perform processing of the data for any of the other permitted uses.
>  
> Option 2:
> Operators MAY retain data related to a communication in a third-party context. They MUST provide public transparency of their data retention period, which MUST have a specific time period (e.g. not infinite or indefinite.) During this time, operators may render data unlinkable (as described above) or perform processing of the data for any of the other permitted uses.
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