- From: Rik Cabanier <cabanier@adobe.com>
- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 14:45:36 -0800
- To: "www-svg@w3.org" <www-svg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <83F37C1A4497B54589EAEDC750D03A941E849FD9FE@nambx09.corp.adobe.com>
http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
20 Dec 2012
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec/0063.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
+1.415.308.aaaa, ed, birtles, cabanier, krit, heycam,
Doug_Schepers, nikos, Tav, Rich
Regrets
Chair
heycam
Scribe
ed, cabanier
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]mask-type
2. [6]filter effects feedback
3. [7]SVG test suite
4. [8]CSS animation of SVG attributes
5. [9]SVG font in SVG 2
6. [10]confs
7. [11]SVG at ISO
* [12]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 20 December 2012
<ed> scribeNick: ed
mask-type
ds: we have mask-* properties, would like to add... ...
shorthand function
<krit>
[13]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html#
mask-property
[13] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html#mask-property
cm: would apply to mask element, wheterh the mask content
should be interpreted as ...
<cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
heycam: it is a bit confusing if masktype applies to the mask
element
... and the things that get masked
... what the mask is describing depending on what it's applied to
krit: I would like to have in the short-hand
... masktype should be consistent
,,, the problem is that we have to special case the mask-type
... this means that we can't mask a mask
... in the future
birtles: can't we rename mask-type to mask-source-type?
heycam: so make the one from the shorthand mask-source-type
... or we can rename the other one
krit: that sounds fine with me as well. should we try to make
it shorter?
heycam: have the longer one for the one that is used in the
shorthand
everyone: that sounds good
resolution: we'll have mask-source-type property as part of the
shorthand and leave mask-type property as the one that just
applies to the mask element
filter effects feedback
<heycam>
[14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0059.ht
ml
[14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0059.html
heycam: we should have someone to review his comments
krit: I didn't read it yet
heycam: are these new features?
krit: I think they're additions
nikos: angle for dropshadow seems useful
<scribe> ACTION: Dirk to review filter effects proposal
[recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3404 - Review filter effects proposal
[on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-12-27].
SVG test suite
heycam: we need a plan so we can migrate the exisitng tests
into the new test suite
...and make sure that they're still valid and in the right format
... for a lot of them, we can just split them out
... and make them reftests. The problem is creating the reference
krit: some things like masking is hard to test as a reftest
heycam: yeah. maybe we can do simple paths with raster images
...or we can a couple of manually inspected test for these things
... with reftests, there is always the problem that very basic
primitives are hard to write tests for
... maybe we should have visually inspection
krit: yes, at some point we will have to do that
heycam: yes
krit: We should have a day on our F2F to talk just about
testing
... testing is very important for the specification
heycam: for our exisitng test, would people object that they
are assigned a block of test?
...not for detailed review, but just to check
... and then at a later date, write reftests for those
heycam: we can get started on that while we're in Sydney
krit: yes
... first review and then ref tests
heycam: I will look into what's needed to make the format right
<scribe> ACTION: heycam to allocate chunks of the test suite
for different people to review [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3405 - Allocate chunks of the test
suite for different people to review [on Cameron McCormack -
due 2012-12-27].
heycam: I would like to know where to put test in the
repository
krit: the CSS WG just puts everyting in a folder
... with support for testharnass.js
... you write the test and put it in the same folder as the
reftest
<heycam> [17]http://wiki.csswg.org/test/scripttest
[17] http://wiki.csswg.org/test/scripttest
<scribe> ACTION: heycam follow up that scripted tests can go in
repository [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3406 - Follow up that scripted tests
can go in repository [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-12-27].
krit: Peter Linss can help us write a real test suite
heycam: yes, we need to figure out how to run shepard
CSS animation of SVG attributes
krit: I restarted the thread on www-style.
...authors would like to use this.
... I will bring it up on the FX tast force
heycam: I'm not surprised that there was no response
... I think it's a difficult topic. It's a major thing
krit: that might be
... I would like to start with just a couple of properties just
as x and y
... to make it easier
heycam: patrick had a list
krit: I saw that
... we still need to figure out with attributes that are used
twice
... and we might need new names
... We should start by agreeing with new names
<TabAtkins> That info was laid out in one fo the old threads.
shepazu: I don't agree that we need new name
<heycam> TabAtkins, this has all been discussed before, you are
right.
krit: right now some attributes depend on the element such as
x, y on text or a rectangle
shepazu: I prefer that each element can have its own behavior
... I'm unsure where the group is on different names such as
rectX, etc
... does anyone think that width height in SVG than it is in CSS
heycam: I don't think so
... It depends on the pattern of renaming that we will use
... if we use longer descriptor names, it might make sense.
Otherwise no
shepazu: does it make sense to not add cx, cy to a circle and
stick to x and y?
krit: the CSS WG doesn't even want x and y
<TabAtkins> We don't want x and y because those are on the
"used in two different ways with different grammars" list. ^_^
krit: (reading Tab's irc)
<heycam> It could be just as easy as saying "rect { x: 10px
20px }" is treated just like 10px
<heycam> if we wanted to use the same syntax
<heycam> not sure how much of a problem it really is
shepazu: maybe we can say that x/y is treated differently
heycam: we can talk about boxes in SVG
krit: that is a totally differnt topic
... I would like to see circles directly in HTML and <p>
directly in SVG
... at that point we need to decribe the boxing model
... but it's still not working. we need 2 different properties
<TabAtkins> (I'm fine with x/y as just being properties used by
the SVG layout model, and <text> exposing some
differently-named property for its x/y stuff.
<krit> would work as well, again, just an edge case that we
need to resolve on later
shepazu: the HTML WG is becoming more modularized
... we could write a new module that descibes SVG in HTML
... and have bare SVG elements
krit: it doesn't have to be a new module
shepazu: yes. but how would we do this?
SVG font in SVG 2
krit: we are not working on SVG fonts
... and a lot of things are not implemented and FF and IE are not
going either
... so I would like to remove from SVG2
heycam: we agreed to have a separate module
... I do agree with your point to have a separate module.
However, I don't know how good use of a time it is
krit: it's already in its own module, so we can split it off
heycam: yes, but it's in the SVG 1.1 spec, so they can still
implement it
ed: I think we have actions. Chris has an action to create a
new font module
... I have an action to move the tiny font
heycam: you will move the chapter of the tiny spec into the
main spec?
... do you still agree that we should do that
ed: whatever's easiest. as long as it's a required part
heycam: it's very unlikely that we will implement that
... I don't know if that matters.
shepazu: I think it does.
... getting consensus on if a feature is part of the language is
important.
... otherwise authors will have a bad time
... even if it's a module, we should say if it's required or not
krit: I'd say the fonts module is not part of the core
Tav: I think the SVG fonts are serving a different purpose. For
instance decorative purposes
shepazu: I agree with you
... how, today the inkscape output does not render in FF, IE or
webkit
... this harms every authoring tool
Tav: inkscape doesn't support svg fonts today :-0)
shepazu: so this proves my point
...you and Eric say that they want to keep SVG fonts, but they've
never been properly supported
krit: yes, WebKit only had a small part of fonts implemented
shepazu: also, there will be SVG fonts inside of OpenType
... that is one way
... for instance, groovy text is very hard to use with SVG fonts
today
... we should look at what features we want from SVG text
<ed> clarification: I do want to keep SVG *Tiny* fonts, the SVG
1.1 full fonts are just underspecified - and would need much
more detail (the same applies to svg-in-opentype as well)
<heycam> +1 to what doug just said about associating text with
graphics
tav: this solution, would you be able to select the text?
krit: SVG in opentype can do a lot more than SVG fonts
... animation for instance
shepazu: that's not quite true
... however, we're talking about adding features. We're not
talking about dropping features
heycam: I think with Doug
... marking graphics with a title/description
... would be a good idea
... It would be a good idea that you could select the box and
copy the text
shepazu: I think that sounds great and especially if it can be
implemented easily
heycam: I agree that what's in the spec is what we want people
to implement
shepazu: yes, that is the goal of SVG2
Tav: it would be good if there's an alternate way to get access
to the content (inside the glyph)
heycam: I recently heard that some people had troubles with
outlined text
<heycam>
[19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0070.ht
ml
[19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0070.html
shepazu: regardless of our decision on font, I would like to
push forward with groovy text
... it would be nice that you can aggregate strings
heycam: yes, that's why I want to define the selection area
shepazu: maybe having them as seperate elements will do that
heycam: yes. I would like to think about a feature like this
<ed> that looks similar to altGlyph
<ed> (which isn't part of svgfonts)
<heycam> good point ed
<heycam> we should look at what altGlyph affords us now
shepazu: krit, why do you want SVG fonts to drop?
heycam: because we think SVG fonts are not the right direction
krit: ???
... we won't drop exisitng support because of legacy reasons
shepazu: is your point that ie and ff not implementing, is
doing more harm than good?
krit: yes
heycam: we can discuss this more during the F2F
... does anyone have remarks on the groovy text proposal?
... I will come up with a more concrete proposal
krit: yes, how you use it, where, etc
<scribe> ACTION: heycam make a concrete proposal for
associating text with graphics [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3407 - Make a concrete proposal for
associating text with graphics [on Cameron McCormack - due
2012-12-27].
confs
shepazu: Josh Davis will talk at w3conf
<shepazu> [21]http://openvisconf.com
[21] http://openvisconf.com/
... ??? asked me to submit a paper on accessibility of data
visualisation
... if anyone is interested in making some examples
... I would love that
... this conference is in May
richardschwerdtfeger: I have some material that you can reuse
shepazu: and talk about connector and ARIA
... if anyone knows anything other conference where we can
promote SVG
topic SVG at ISO
SVG at ISO
shepazu: W3C can have its specs rubber stamped
... we want to get an SVG ISO spec
... are we planning on making a SVG 1.1 version 3?
heycam: no
shepazu: SVG 2.0 is not ready in 2013
... if a spec is an iso spec, it can be used by more people (ie
governments)
... it comes down to, having more people using your technology
cabanier: don't we lose rights to our own documents if we
submit to ISO?
shepazu: no. The W3C worked out a special deal. ISO can't
change or owns the spec
... people can buy the specs from ISO but there is a link on the
ISO URL where you can download the spec from the W3C
shepazu: so, if we give them something this year, it should be
SVG 1.1 second edition
richardschwerdtfeger: what state do we expect SVG2.0 to be by
the end of 2013?
heycam: CR hopefully
richardschwerdtfeger: this would mean that epub would pick it
up for 3.1
heycam: that could be good since epub is picking up all the CSS
features
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Dirk to review filter effects proposal [recorded
in [22]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: heycam follow up that scripted tests can go in
repository [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: heycam make a concrete proposal for associating
text with graphics [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: heycam to allocate chunks of the test suite for
different people to review [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
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$Date: 2012-12-20 22:43:08 $
__________________________________________________________
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Received on Thursday, 20 December 2012 22:46:08 UTC