Minutes, SVG IG Teleconf Thursday 14 August 2008

trackbot>   Meeting: SVG Interest Group Teleconference
<trackbot>  Date: 14 August 2008
<Zakim> GA_SVGIG()11:00AM has now started
<anthony>   Scribe: anthony
<anthony>   Chair: Jeff Schiller
<Zakim> + +1.720.855.aabb
-->|    Bruce (chatzilla@97.118.70.230) has joined #svgig
<shepazu>   zakim, 1.720.855.aabb is Bruce
<Zakim> sorry, shepazu, I do not recognize a party named '1.720.855.aabb'
<anthony>   Topic: SVG Torture Test
<anthony>   JS: What we want to do basically
* shepazu   zakim, aabb is Bruce
* Zakim +Bruce; got it
<anthony>   ... there are acid tests out there
<anthony>   ... that test a variety of specs
<anthony>   ... there are some in the acid 3 that cover outlaying 
functionality in browers
<anthony>   ... we were thinking of having torture tests where we go 
through and test
<anthony>   ... some of the requirements
<anthony>   ... I started this in my own time
<anthony>   ... but I'm going to need more help doing it
<anthony>   ... hoping that someone can contribute
<anthony>   ... not sure how public we should make this
<anthony>   DP: can you describe the result of the work?
<anthony>   JS: The acid tests are basically one document you navigate to
<anthony>   ... the result is shown as whether you pass or fail
<anthony>   ... we could have layers
<anthony>   ... so that the first is SVG Tiny 1.2 features
<anthony>   ... the test would include a variety of spec points
<anthony>   ... in one file
<anthony>   ... that's what I started with
<anthony>   ... (smiley face)
<anthony>   ... but we'd be looking for more input
<anthony>   Bruce: I don't know if we can go down the line of acid tests
<anthony>   ... one thing I've run into and do works around is 
coordinate systems
<anthony>   ... I thought it would be more along the lines of a sequence 
of tests
<anthony>   ... similar to what Jeff has on his page
<Bruce> example: http://www.lrcwe-data.com/tmp/relative.svg
<anthony>   JS: I think there is value in the marketing of these tests
<anthony>   ... where you can go to one page and see the result
<Bruce> workaround: http://www.lrcwe-data.com/tmp/relative2.svg
<anthony>   RR: A torture that includes the coordinate range
<anthony>   ... and give a reason for the result
<anthony>   ... if you look at the way people reacted to the acid tests 
it raised races between the browsers
<anthony>   JS: The idea is definitely gets the browser vendors going
<anthony>   ... I think it's still very much a working progress
<anthony>   DS: I've seen what you've go
<anthony>   s/go/got/
<JeffSchiller>  http://www.codedread.com/acid/acid1.html
<DavePorter>    Is the coordinate range part of the spec? Or not? From 
what I understand, SVG provides an "infinite" 2D plane, but the browsers 
have some varying hard limit based on their tech.
<anthony>   JS: So this has a HTML framing document
<anthony>   ... there are at least 4 ways to include SVG in HTML
<anthony>   ... this HTML tests all 4 ways
<anthony>   ... big disclaimer don't know if these tests are correct
<anthony>   ... if you click on the link it gives a reference rendering
<Bruce> Dave - I think the coordinate range is part of the spec..
<anthony>   JS: This is about 10% done
<anthony>   ... there are comments about it
<DavePorter>    Do you know offhand what the number is? I remember FF2 
maxed out at about a 32K-pixel plane.
<DavePorter>    FF3 is better
<anthony>   DS: I think that's pretty funny the idea of doing the teeth
<anthony>   ... the smile could be a clip path
<anthony>   JS: If someone can write the test, that would be even better
<anthony>   DS: Can we use this as a starting point?
<anthony>   JS: Sure
<anthony>   DS: Two other things, you have embed, iframe, and image
<anthony>   JS: Opera shows all 4
<anthony>   ... FF doesn't
<anthony>   DS: Very different in Opera
<anthony>   ... I think also having an inline one there
<anthony>   ... even though it's not spec-ed out
<anthony>   JS: I had thought of that
<anthony>   ... it's just a lot easier to reference it as an external file
<anthony>   ... any comments or questions?
<anthony>   DS: questions about tests
<anthony>   ... Bruce that file you showed do browsers have a problem 
with that?
<anthony>   Bruce: almost all browsers have problems with it
<anthony>   ... with the first one
<anthony>   ... the second one almost all of them can handle the second one
<anthony>   ... if you look at the first one FF struggles with it as 
does Adobe
<ddailey>   Something similar testing cross-DOM scripting: 
http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/createSVGelementfromHTML.html
<anthony>   ... Renesis handles it
<anthony>   DS: Would you mind submitting those as tests for the 
interest group?
<anthony>   Bruce: Sure
<anthony>   ... my image is you have a cross hair that was say red
<anthony>   ... then you have lines under it
<anthony>   ... to test how the implementations handle the coordinates
<anthony>   ... [explains workaround of test]
<anthony>   DS: The goal of an acid test is to get interoperability
<anthony>   ... so what happens when you don't have that
<anthony>   ... but a work around
<anthony>   ... so there are actually two different goals here
<anthony>   ... so that later is something we can do on the community page
<DavePorter>    The guy from IBM who supports FF's SVG, told me FF2 had 
16.16 bits, and they shifted the decimal for FF3, it's 24.8
<anthony>   ... e.g. here are the problems
<anthony>   ... here are the work arounds
<anthony>   ... so we have the list of tests on the wiki page
<anthony>   ... and for tests that have work arounds we provide the info
<anthony>   Bruce: So we can say there might be a better way to work 
around things
<anthony>   DS: We can start brain storming this on the SVG IG wiki
<anthony>   ... so Bruce if you can start something like that
<anthony>   ... maybe we could start pages
<anthony>   ... and if you can send me the cross hair test
<anthony>   Bruce: I'll see if I can work something up
<anthony>   Topic: Accessibility
<anthony>   JS: Rob and I spent sometime hacking this
<anthony>   ... hopefully with the new version of inkscape it will 
encourage authors to
<anthony>   ... set titles etc
<anthony>   DS: If you can keep posting bugs to the list that'd be great
<JeffSchiller> 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/Accessibility_Activity#Inkscape
<anthony>   JS: So quickly about accessibility
<anthony>   ... that's a list of bugs
<anthony>   ... other than that
<anthony>   ... is it
<anthony>   ... One thing I was thinking about is you can download the 
entire clip art library to your machine
<DavePorter>    I would like to contribute to the discussion about 
Testing, if that's on the wiki that would be a great place to focus the 
energy.
<anthony>   ... was wondering if we could programatically titles to the 
files
<anthony>   ... I think JC did a study and said very few of those files 
had titles
<anthony>   ... I'd have to do a scan to see how many files contain meta 
data title
<anthony>   DS: So you suspect that alot of files have titles just not 
title elements
<anthony>   JS: I think the first thing is to scan the files to see if 
they have a title in the metadata
<anthony>   DS: If you could easily write a bot to do this, to download it
<anthony>   ... change it a bit
<DavePorter>    Is it common that <Title> and <Desc> elements become 
visible in browsers when you mouse-hover over the object in question?
<anthony>   ... and resubmit it
<anthony>   ... we should contact them
<anthony>   ... and talk to them about best practices
|<--    ddailey has left irc.w3.org:6665 (Ping timeout)
<anthony>   ACTION: Doug to contact Media Wiki to discuss best practices 
and possibly automating download and upload of files
* trackbot  noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
<trackbot>  Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
<anthony>   JS: The first effort will be to have the tools to add the 
title element
<anthony>   ... then get it adopted to display it
<shepazu> 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Ensign_of_the_Royal_Air_Force.svg
<anthony>   ... the desc element is not visible unless you turn off images
<anthony>   DS: Here is another example of an SVG image in Media Wiki
<anthony>   ... if you look at it
<anthony>   ... it does have a title
<anthony>   ... and if you look it has that as the id of the SVG element
<anthony>   ... I'm just wondering if you check the id
<anthony>   ... of the SVG element
<anthony>   ... so you could look at the file and strip out dashes and 
underscores
<anthony>   RR: Open clipart has a similar situation
<anthony>   ... I think the same approach can be taken on the whole thing
<shepazu>   DS: and camelcase names
<anthony>   ... not sure if you can automate the whole thing
<anthony>   JS: has to be well tested
<anthony>   DS: So my idea is you start with the DC title then, file 
name then, id of SVG root
<anthony>   ... and this is first pass right
<anthony>   ... we could talk to people on media wiki or wikipedia to 
mark up the SVG
<anthony>   ... the same way the mark up the articles themselves
<anthony>   RR: There are people who write bots for media wiki
<anthony>   ... so if you can appeal to them that'd be great
<anthony>   JS: So I think we'll soon be wrapping up with Inkscape hacking
<anthony>   Topic: Process - Tracker
<anthony>   DS: One of the things that helps the SVG WG
<anthony>   ... to keep track of all things that they are trying to do
<anthony>   ... is have a bug tracking, issue tracking software
<anthony>   ... called tracker
<anthony>   ... when I'm issued an action it will automatically put into 
a Bugzilla type tracking system
<anthony>   ... you can then go to a page and get a summary of what 
you've been assigned
<anthony>   ... and the status
<anthony>   ... you can also select items in the conference
<anthony>   ... if you're willing to take work on it will help track the 
actions
<anthony>   ... e.g. if we want to track actions for Dave's book they 
can all be put in one place
<anthony>   ... instead of email
<anthony>   ... hopefully that will be in place in the next few days
<anthony>   ... I'll put my actions from this telcon
<anthony>   ... into that page
<anthony>   ... since we are actually doing stuff
<anthony>   Topic: SVG Community Site
<anthony>   JS: Last time we got something up and running
<anthony>   RR: I did the open ID module
<anthony>   ... it's kind of quirky
<anthony>   ... will probably have to wait for a better version of it to 
come out
<anthony>   ... also turned out path module
<anthony>   ... so there are clean URLs
<anthony>   ... I haven't turned on tasks yet
<anthony>   ... we'll have to do that soon
<anthony>   ... turned on RSS module on
<anthony>   ... seems like it's working
<anthony>   ... you can see the lastest news items
<anthony>   JS: Did some testing
<anthony>   ... I approved some news items
<JeffSchiller>  http://www.rush70.com/news
<anthony>   ... they eventually came up on the page
<anthony>   RR: We are still basically a default thing
<anthony>   ... if anyone has ideas of what it's suppose to look like
<anthony>   ... in terms of themes
<JeffSchiller>  JS: Photoshop mockups, etc are very welcome
<anthony>   ... but it'd probably go a lot faster if someone has an idea
<anthony>   DS: Sounds like you've both done a lot of work
<anthony>   ... Is this stuff something you could have on the SVG IG 
mailing list
<anthony>   JS: wouldn't want to start putting URLs in the mail
<anthony>   ... start getting crawled by search engines
<anthony>   RR: could use the IRC channel
<anthony>   DS: Currently the IRC channel is not getting archived
<anthony>   RR: Doesn't matter
<anthony>   ... it's more public
<anthony>   ... but people can participate
<anthony>   DS: If I see traffic on the IG
<anthony>   ... I'll probably chime in
<anthony>   RR: The more public it is the more people get involved
<anthony>   ... I'd prefer IRC because it's a lot faster
<anthony>   DS: SUre
<anthony>   ... I can ask the systems team about logging it
<anthony>   ... if you don't mind
<anthony>   RR: Fine with me
<anthony>   DS: Have you looked at the DocuWiki
<anthony>   RR: One I was thinking of was Wikilinks
<anthony>   ... allows you to scribe the links similar to a wiki
<anthony>   ... there's another one called BBcode
<anthony>   ... I'll look into a few of them
<anthony>   ... and get a summary if nothing else
<anthony>   DS: Are you intending on putting a wiki proper?
<anthony>   RR: Running multiple things is you have problems with user 
log ins and profiles
<anthony>   ... and linking between them
<anthony>   ... I think Druple is capable of doing what we want
<anthony>   ... but if someone comes up with a reason to wiki we can 
probably put it in
<anthony>   ... when I hear wiki I think easy markup and easy linking 
and history
<anthony>   ... that exists in Druple but with a different interface
<anthony>   ... you can do WYSIWYG
<anthony>   DS: The biggest thing for me in a wiki is it is collective 
editing
<anthony>   RR: Druple is getting alot more AJAX feel to the interface
<anthony>   ... so it's not as clunky
<anthony>   ... we'll take it for a test run
<anthony>   ... I have a book set up there
<anthony>   ... one called "best practices"
<anthony>   DS: Wiki doesn't really have any structure
<anthony>   RR: Druple allows you to make a structure
<anthony>   ... with the book module can make pages
<anthony>   ... right now is a great time for people to get on there and 
test it out
<anthony>   AG: Will tutorials be posted there at some point?
<anthony>   JS: Yes, at some point tutorials will be posted there
<anthony>   Topic: Progress on David's SVG Book
<anthony>   JS: I haven't had time to read it yet
<anthony>   ... wanted to see what the status was
<anthony>   ... see if I could get someone signed up to read bits
<anthony>   ... Dave did you get a chance to send the form yet?
<anthony>   DP: Yes
<anthony>   DS: Dave have you done anything with the book?
<anthony>   DP: Nope
<anthony>   DS: Dave can you please send an email to the group asking 
for feedback on the book
<anthony>   DP: Sure
<shepazu> 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/resources/StateOfArt-Dailey.html
<anthony>   DS: Rather than everyone read the whole book
<anthony>   ... might be good for several of us to take chapters to review
<anthony>   ... like any book you might have to skip forward or 
backwards to get context
<anthony>   JS: SVG Open
<anthony>   Topic: SVG Open
<DavePorter>    Dave Porter will not be attending
<anthony>   DD: I'll be there
<anthony>   Bruce: I'll be there
<Bruce> I will be there
<anthony>   DS: I'll be there
<anthony>   ... there isn't many of us
<anthony>   ... we could announce a meeting at the time
<anthony>   ... and arrange a meeting over dinner
<anthony>   ... are you all going to be there the whole time
<anthony>   Bruce: yes
<anthony>   DS: We can talk about it on the list
<anthony>   ... don't know what the schedule is like
<anthony>   ... but perhaps after the second day
<anthony>   ... are you both presenting?
<anthony>   Bruce: Wed
<anthony>   DD: I have something Fri and Thur
<anthony>   JS: We can get some chatter going on the mailing list
<anthony>   DS: I'll be sending regrets because I'll be at the Open
<anthony>   JS: I guess we can have a quick call with status update
<anthony>   JS: So basically I've been logging on and approving any 
stories I think are interesting
<anthony>   ... but anyone with an admin account can do that
Zakim>  -Bruce
<Zakim> -DavePorter
<Zakim> -David_Dailey
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<Zakim> - +1.149.1.aaaa
<Zakim> -??P30
<Zakim> -anthony
<Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
<Zakim> GA_SVGIG()11:00AM has ended
<Zakim> Attendees were +1.149.1.aaaa, Doug_Schepers, anthony, 
DavePorter, David_Dailey, +1.720.855.aabb, Bruce