- From: Joshua Lieberman <jlieberman@tumblingwalls.com>
- Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 20:54:04 -0400
- To: "<Simon.Cox@csiro.au>" <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>
- Cc: "<public-sdw-wg@w3.org>" <public-sdw-wg@w3.org>
See, I knew we needed background music. -Josh > On Aug 5, 2015, at 7:57 PM, <Simon.Cox@csiro.au> <Simon.Cox@csiro.au> wrote: > > Apologies - I dropped out part way through the SVG presentation. > Its hard enough staying up until midnight (especially after a 6am start). > A silent presentation just killed it for me - I actually fell asleep. > > Simon Cox | Research Scientist > CSIRO Land and Water > 37 Graham Road, Highett, Vic 3190 > PO Box 56, Highett, Vic 3190 > Tel +61 3 9545 2365 | Mob +61 403 302 672 > simon.cox@csiro.au | http://people.csiro.au/C/S/Simon-Cox > > > ________________________________________ > From: Phil Archer [phila@w3.org] > Sent: Thursday, 6 August 2015 12:06 AM > To: SDW WG Public List; Satoru Takagi > Subject: [Minutes] 2015-08-05 > > The minutes of today's meeting are at > http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-sdw-minutes with a snapshot below. > > Thanks very much to Satoru Takagi for joining to talk about SVG - > there's clearly a lot of interest and we'll need to follow up. As ever, > the issue of coordinate reference systems is the hard problem. > > > Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference > > 05 Aug 2015 > > See also: [2]IRC log > > [2] http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-sdw-irc > > Attendees > > Present > Kerry, stakagi, kostas, aharth, Linda, Payam, Kostas, > ChrisLittle, phila, SImonCox, billroberts, > Alejandro_Llaves, frans, BartvanLeeuwen, AndreaPerego > > Regrets > Lars Svensson, Rachel Heaven, Ed Parsons > > Chair > kerry > > Scribe > andreas harth > > Contents > > * [3]Topics > 1. [4]Welcome new members > 2. [5]Use Cases and Requirements: Editors' stocktake > report > 3. [6]SVG for spatial: Presented by Satoru Takagi > 4. [7]Best Practice Issues as raised by Jeremy > * [8]Summary of Action Items > __________________________________________________________ > > <trackbot> Date: 05 August 2015 > > <kerry> scribe: andreas harth > > <kerry> scribenick: aharth > > <kerry> [9]http://www.w3.org/2015/07/29-sdw-minutes.html > > [9] http://www.w3.org/2015/07/29-sdw-minutes.html > > <Payam> +1 > > <phila> PROPOSED: Approve last week's minutes > > <Payam> +1 > > <Linda> +1 > > <kerry> +1 > > <Alejandro_Llaves> +1 > > <BartvanLeeuwen> +1 > > <phila> RESOLVED: Approve last week's minutes > > <billroberts> +1 > > <ChrisLittle> +1 > > kerry: patent call > > <phila> [10]Patent Call > > [10] https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call > > <phila> kerry: This is the patent call that satisfies OGC > process. It's important that any patent claims are declared > > <phila> ... Please remember to type present+ and your name > > <phila> ... this records your presence in the minutes > > Welcome new members > > <phila> kerry: Invites kostas to introduce himself > > kostas: university of surrey > > <phila> kostas: I'm a KTP associate... at Univesity of Surrey > (works with Payam) > > kerry: welcome Satoru Takagi, editor of svg recommendation > > <phila> kerry: Also welcoms Satoro Takagi, editor an an SVG > spec > > <stakagi> Hello! > > Use Cases and Requirements: Editors' stocktake report > > kerry: update on document > ... frans and alejandro are both here > > <Frans> > [11]http://w3c.github.io/sdw/UseCases/SDWUseCasesAndRequirement > s.html > > [11] http://w3c.github.io/sdw/UseCases/SDWUseCasesAndRequirements.html > > frans: url of current version of the document > ... first public working draft has been published a while ago > ... with feedback on the public comments lists > ... some issues left, issues are labelled in current version of > document > ... some recent changes not related to tracked issues > ... two new chapters have been added > > <Frans> a new chapter: > [12]http://w3c.github.io/sdw/UseCases/SDWUseCasesAndRequirement > s.html#RequirementsByDeliverable > > [12] > http://w3c.github.io/sdw/UseCases/SDWUseCasesAndRequirements.html#RequirementsByDeliverable > > frans: one extra chapter with a summary of requirements per > deliverable > > <Frans> > [13]http://w3c.github.io/sdw/UseCases/SDWUseCasesAndRequirement > s.html#DeferredRequirements > > [13] > http://w3c.github.io/sdw/UseCases/SDWUseCasesAndRequirements.html#DeferredRequirements > > frans: another extra chapter on requirements that are deferred > to some later time > ... another global change relates to slight change of wording > (standards -> recommended way) > > <kerry> alejandro: we are wroking to close the issues in the > tracker still from barcelona > > <kerry> .... ideally now looking for external feedback > > <Linda> What was Frans saying about CRS requirements? > > alejandro: after public working draft we'll get external > feedback that will help to refine requirements > > <kerry> ... we should try to extend the description of > requirements > > <Frans> For CRS requirements a separate meeting or > teleconference is considered. > > alejandro: we should try to extend the descriptions of > requirements with examples > > <kerry> ... with examples and clarifications > > kerry: any more questions on the use case document? > ... discussion on crs in particular delayed a bit to give > people a chance to comment > > SVG for spatial: Presented by Satoru Takagi by invitation (confirmed) > > <ChrisLittle> kerry you kept droppping out on audio - is that > me or you or all? > > <stakagi> Thank you very much for inviting to conference. > > kerry: scalable vector graphics > > <stakagi> First, I would like to introduce the strategy of the > standardization activity of mapping on SVG2. > > <Linda> Good audio here Chris > > <stakagi> I want to fuse mapping with a web browser. Because I > think mapping is essential function for WWW. > > <kerry> stakagi, your turn to speak please! > > kerry: satoru is not on webex but will do presentation on irc > > <stakagi> Yes I am IRC only > > <phila> we're reading you stakagi > > <stakagi> SVG2 is under standardization as a succeeding > standards of SVG1.1 snd edition. Probably, it is standardly > implemented in web browsers. > > <ChrisLittle> * thanks linda - i'll move nearer my router > > <stakagi> [14]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/ > > [14] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/ > > <stakagi> We set some policies in standardization of the > spatial information on SVG. > > <stakagi> Provide a certain effectual result to the drawing > function by the browser of SVG. > > <stakagi> That is, don't be satisfied with a mere metadata. The > functionality should be implemented as a native functionality > of all the web browsers. Besides, we consider that value of Web > is concentrated to the web browsers. > > <stakagi> The functionality needed for Web Mapping should turn > into a native functionality of a web browsers. > > <stakagi> That is, the functionality of Web Mapping should be > offered without massive web Apps. > > <stakagi> We consider that massive Web Apps does not have a not > much good effect on the interoperability of a data. Sometimes, > it may produce a data silo. > > <stakagi> On the other hand, we believe that the functionality > essential to such a mapping should not be a functionality only > for a mappping. > > <stakagi> That is, we consider that the functionality it is > often used by mapping should be generalized so that it may be > used also other than mapping. > > <stakagi> It is because it promotes the native implementation > to web browsers. These are the policies which we (KDDI) > decided. > > <stakagi> So far, are anything a question and comment ? > > <phila> We're reading your words, stakagi > > <stakagi> Yes > > <phila> Please continue, I am likely to have questions later > > <stakagi> Yes continue. > > <stakagi> First, we enumerated needed functionalities on the > mapping for us and submitted the documentation which summarized > it as a first stage draft specification to W3C as member > submission. > > <stakagi> [15]http://www.w3.org/Submission/2011/04/ > > [15] http://www.w3.org/Submission/2011/04/ > > <stakagi> This is our member submission. > > <ChrisLittle> +1 to general mapping migrating natively to > browsers > > <stakagi> Thanks Chris! > > <stakagi> This submission includes global coordinate systems ( > general purpose CRS) > > <Frans> I like the idea of browsers natively recognizing > spatial data and being able to display it. > > <stakagi> and Tiling and Layerling. > > <Frans> Satoro, Well Known Text (WKT) is a popular format for > geographic geometry. Are you looking at automated > transformation between WKT and SVG? > > <stakagi> SVG has metadata framework > > <ChrisLittle> The OGC has active work in progress on layering > and tiling. Is KDDI a member of OGC? > > <kerry> s/nw/now/ > > <stakagi> No, currently KDDI is not OGC member. > > <stakagi> over 15 years ago KDDI was OGC member. > > <ChrisLittle> Joan Maso is Chair of Web Map Tile Service > Standard WG, and I Chair Web Coverage Tile Service SWG > > <ChrisLittle> +1 kddi OGC member! > > <stakagi> but past OGC's member is not interested in our work. > > <ChrisLittle> past is past, now is now > > <stakagi> Yes^^ > > <joshlieberman> I believe that Carl Reed, former OGC CTO had a > fair amount of interaction with the SVG standards working > group, but it lapsed. > > <phila> And W3C is the home of SVG, making things first class > citiznes of the Web etc. Shall we go on ChrisLittle? > > <joshlieberman> Good to take up again, perhaps by recognizing > some mapping use cases, e.g. dealing with geographic projection > and feature attributes > > <phila> Do you have more stakagi or should we ask more > questions? > > <stakagi> Do you intered in Tiling architecture on SVG? > > <kerry> anyone for tiling? > > <phila> Isn't the point of SVG for maps that we can do away > with tiling? > > <Frans> I think vector geometry tiling is a hot topic > > <joshlieberman> It is certainly a part of work on geopackage > > <stakagi> I have tiling slide > > <stakagi> > [16]http://www.slideshare.net/totipalmate/tiling-51301496 > > [16] http://www.slideshare.net/totipalmate/tiling-51301496 > > <ChrisLittle> OGC WCTileService has three phases. first, now is > for pixel tile, second then point clouds, then lastly > geometries, whichare close to SVG > > <stakagi> Tiling on SVG is (probably) much different from > WebGIS's tiling architecture. > > <kerry> stakagi, people are speaking about interest in this > tiling topc > > <Frans> Is [17]http://www.w3.org/Submission/SVGTL/ likely to be > included in SVG2? > > [17] http://www.w3.org/Submission/SVGTL/ > > <phila> How do you define a pixel, ChrisLittle? (CSS pixels are > not equal to actiual pixels on the screen for e.g.) > > <Linda> I share phila's question: Isn't the point of SVG for > maps that we can do away with tiling? > > <stakagi> Most differnt point is "non > arithmetical-pregression". > > <ChrisLittle> Currently, Joan and I are interested in > establishing a n-dimensional tiling architecture, to supercede > 2-D and layers > > <ChrisLittle> this may not be of interst to 2-D SVG > > <Frans> We could do away with image tiling, vector tiling is a > different subject. > > <joshlieberman> Certainly an SVG capability to work with > multiple coordinate reference systems as Web mapping apps do, > would be very useful (e.g. pixel, viewport, tiling scheme, > projected CRS, geo CRS) > > <ChrisLittle> +1 to that hierarchy > > <phila> Do you have ideas for how the SVG work and this WG's > work can be aligned, stakagi? > > <stakagi> About our submission > ([18]http://www.w3.org/Submission/SVGTL/) > > [18] http://www.w3.org/Submission/SVGTL/) > > <joshlieberman> Darn, I was going to be impressed by the > emphasis > > <stakagi> we expressed that the submitted specification > proposal should be once disassembled and it should have been > reconstructed based on the view of the SVGWG members. It is > because we thought that a generality increased by such > procdess. Moreover, many of members of SVGWG are the developers > of a well-known web browsers. And the specification which > reached their consensus is easy to be implemented in a browser. > > <joshlieberman> So do we need to consider SVG potential as a > spatial data format or its compatibility with spatial data (as > a graphic format)? > > <Frans> I think SVG already is a spatial data format. Perhaps > not geographic, but spatial yes. > > <stakagi> Yes I think so. > > joshlieberman: could we consider svg as spatial data format > (with crs...) > > <phila> joshlieberman: Is SVG a spatial format? That's one > perspective. Another is, is SVG interoperable with other > spatial data formats > > joshlieberman: is svg interoperable with other spatial data > formats > > <kerry> stakagi, can you comment on interoperability with other > spatail formats? > > <ChrisLittle> SVG certainly made the processing chain in > meteorology shorter > > <Zakim> kerry, you wanted to ask about CRS > > <stakagi> I think SVG is interoperable with other spatial > formats > > <stakagi> if CRS is resolved > > <joshlieberman> Chris, is SVG used as a fully expressive > spatial data format for mets, or a presentation format? > > <kerry> Stakagi, how does SVG handle coord systems? > > <ChrisLittle> I think various conversion tools like > shapefile<->SVG or CGM existed > > <stakagi> The specification of a geographic-coordinates system > on SVG1.1 is described here. > > <Frans> I think SVG will remain 2D? Most geographical formats > are enabled for 3D > > <ChrisLittle> SVG used for both presentation and archive, > thoughI have concerns about latter in context of SVG2 > > <joshlieberman> Well, you can consider, e.g., Geoserver a > conversion tool, but one of its output formats is SVG. It's a > full rendering process, though, from shapefiles for example, > requiring the addition of portrayal information. > > <stakagi> Transformation for SVG is 3D. > > <ChrisLittle> We used CGM for distribution of presentations and > archive too, but CGM rather niche now > > <stakagi> because CSS3 uses 3d transformations. > > <ChrisLittle> CGM<->SVG very straightforward > > <stakagi> and SVG is tightly coupled with CSS > > kerry: so svg is 3d now? > > <phila> Yep. I'm just looking for a ref to SVG 3 D > > <stakagi> But geometry is still 2D. > > <stakagi> > [19]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/coords.html#GeographicCoordinates > > [19] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/coords.html#GeographicCoordinates > > <Frans> Consider 3D source data to be transformed to SVG > > <ChrisLittle> SVG2 has support for the 3D->2D pipeline, but is > not strictly 3D > > <stakagi> Yes. > > <kerry> any comments onthe coords link anyone? > > <stakagi> The specification of a geographic-coordinates system > on SVG1.1 is described here. However, geographic-coordinates > system on SVG does not agree of the policy described so far. > The metadata which does not influence a rendition. Only for > geospatial. > > <Frans> support for spherical coordinates would be great > > <stakagi> As expected, this specification is going to be > obsoluted on SVG2. > > <stakagi> Then, we proposed the concept of the global > coordinate system for realizing the functionality of a tiling > and layering. The global coordinate system could be used also > as geographic coordinate system. Arbitrary global coordinate > systems are specified as URI. However, the spec of SVG2 does > not have a global coordinate system yet. > > <ChrisLittle> I think SVG will not support spherical coords. > you will have to look towards OpenGL > > <Linda> It says " RDF description of the Coordinate Reference > System definition used to generate the SVG map". > Interesting.... > > <stakagi> > [20]https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Global_Co > ordinate_Systems > > [20] > https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Global_Coordinate_Systems > > <stakagi> This is our proposal for "global" coordinate systems. > > <ChrisLittle> Global coord system suggests links to OGC DGGS > Digital Global Grid system work > > <joshlieberman> Yes, that's an aspect of trying to make > functionality that exists in OpenLayers or Leaflet a native > browser function -- for example projecting WGS84 coordinates > into Web Mercator for display overlay. > > <ChrisLittle> -1 web mercator > > <Frans> frans wonders how we can strengthen ties with SVG > development in general and in the UCR doc specifically > > <joshlieberman> ...As example of a projected coordinate system > to avoid the "stupid" aka plat carre projection. > > <kerry> satoru will be at tpac, although SVG WG is not meeting > > <phila> Should we have a session about this at TPAC then? > > <stakagi> Yes I will attend TPAC. > > <ChrisLittle> +1 to session at Sapporo, though not going. > Jeremy can cope. > > <joshlieberman> I would suggest two lines of inquiry -- > interoperability with spatial data, and a plugin mechanism for > more capable spatiotemporal transformations. > > <stakagi> SVG1.1's geographic coordinate systems specification > is going to be obsoluted on SVG2. > > <Frans> Perhaps we can at least mention SVG in the UCR document > before TPAC > > <Linda> The CRS reference topic is interesting for our CRS > discussion as well. > > <ChrisLittle> +1 to Josh's proposed activities at some stage > > <stakagi> Because it is only for metadata. No influece for SVG > rendering. > > <kerry> josh: best practice we should look t svg and > expressivness > > <kerry> ... unclear how to express spatial data we need to > learn this > > <kerry> ... and maybe motivate some svg work > > <kerry> ... sticking point is crs support > > kerry: requires looking at transformations and crs support > > <kerry> .... native mapping support is attractive but > transformation and coords in a native implmentation is needed > > kerry: is there a way to plug in transformation mechanisms that > exist in JS (e.g. OpenLayers) > > <kerry> ... can we suggest a way to plug in the transformation > mechanisms we know of in javascript apps > > <stakagi> What is transformation? > > <ChrisLittle> +q > > <kerry> ....so they do not need to be in every browser but can > be plugins > > <stakagi> latitude/longitude to X-Y? > > <Frans> Satoro, do you mean CRS is not on the agenda for SVG 2? > > <ChrisLittle> a plugin issue killed or seriiously damaged SVG > ten years ago > > phila: it would be interesting to define a JS-aligned web api > to do a translation > ... OpenLayers (or similar) could enact that > > <stakagi> Probably we can't understand geo-community's CRS > meanings. > > phila: geolocations API (separate group) is defining an API for > geofencing and so on > > <stakagi> Yes I don't like plug-in or other extensions. > > phila: just define the API, inner workings do not need to be > detailed > > <kerry> satoru, crs is an hot topic in the group, that we have > not resolved > > <Frans> I think there should be simpler level CRS definitions > anyway > > <Frans> ... we need to bridge the gap between geographical data > and spatial data in SDWWG > > <kerry> thank you satoru! > > kerry: thanks satoru for making time > > <joshlieberman> Thanks from Josh as well. > > <kerry> ACTIONto kerry to follow up with SVG > > <stakagi> The definition of CRS is unclear in general purpose > > <scribe> ACTION: kerry to follow up with SVG [recorded in > [21]http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-sdw-minutes.html#action01] > > [21] http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-sdw-minutes.html#action01] > > <trackbot> Created ACTION-60 - Follow up with svg [on Kerry > Taylor - due 2015-08-12]. > > <kerry> Satoru, thank you for your presentation! > > chrislittle: phila, which of the svg wg members with be in > sapporo > > <kerry> Satoru, I will ensure we continue a conversation, there > is a lot of interest in this group > > phila: doug will be there > > <stakagi> Thanks. > > <kerry> returning to webex > > kerry: back to audio > > <stakagi> I would like to understand CRS well first. > > <Linda> Any hotel suggestions for Sapporo? > > kerry: reminder: put your attendance on the wiki for TPAC > > <ChrisLittle> I did! > > [22]https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Attending_Sapporo_F2F > > [22] https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Attending_Sapporo_F2F > > <stakagi> The hotel in Japan is mostly narrow. > > Best Practice Issues as raised by Jeremy > > <Payam> Jeremy's email: > [23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sdw-wg/2015Jul/0 > 097.html > > [23] > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sdw-wg/2015Jul/0097.html > > kerry: we ran a bit out of time > ... i might coordinate with payam about trying to find > volunteers > > <Payam> > [24]https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Consolidation > > [24] https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Consolidation > > <Payam> > [25]https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Consolidated_Narrat > ives#Consolidated_narratives_.2F_common_themes > > [25] > https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Consolidated_Narratives#Consolidated_narratives_.2F_common_themes > > kerry: relating topics in the document with web architecture > and use cases > > <Payam> Jeremy's email: > [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sdw-wg/2015Jul/0 > 097.html > > [26] > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sdw-wg/2015Jul/0097.html > > kerry: thank you everybody, esp. to Satoru > > <AndreaPerego> Thanks and bye > > <Alejandro_Llaves> thanks, bye" > > <billrobe_> thanks bye > > <Linda> bye > > <Frans> Goodday! > > <BartvanLeeuwen> thx bye > > <joshlieberman> Thanks bye > > <kostas> thanks bye! > > <ChrisLittle> bye and thanks > > Summary of Action Items > > [NEW] ACTION: kerry to follow up with SVG [recorded in > [27]http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-sdw-minutes.html#action01] > > [27] http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-sdw-minutes.html#action01 > > [End of minutes] > __________________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 6 August 2015 00:54:37 UTC