Re: Eurocentrism, incorrect unit abbreviations, and proprietary Royalist Engish (sic) terms

In my opinion it's mostly irrelevant what the class name is called. A Dutch, French or Portuguese speaker won't understand either and that's fine. Should we discard all names because the majority of the world in 2018 won't understand them in their native language?

This is like discussing whether "else" in programming languages should be replaced by "otherwise". The fact that it mimics some familiar word is a help for some but at the end of the day it's still a machine-readable, technical term, that needs proper documentation for implementors to use correctly.

And Joe, I would recommend stopping using the invented phrase "Royalist English" if you seek credibility as a standards advocate. Plus it's provocative, which is not a favorable attitude inside consensus-seeking dynamics. Some people have already expressed their feeling about that and have been ignored.

David

________________________________
From: Joe Duarte <songofapollo@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:33:52 PM
To: richard.wallis@dataliberate.com
Cc: pete.rivett@adaptive.com; thadguidry@gmail.com; schema.org Mailing List
Subject: Re: Eurocentrism, incorrect unit abbreviations, and proprietary Royalist Engish (sic) terms

​Hi all – I'm puzzled again. ​
How does this
​revision ​
improve the situation? It still uses Royalist English
​ instead of American – that is, it still uses CampingPitch, which American publishers and web developers will be unfamiliar with. The American term is campsite. ​According to Michael Andrews, Indians also use campsite. I see three issues:

  1.
​Why are we using Royalist English for official terms? By default, shouldn't we be using American English since that's the vast majority of the English-speaking user base in 2018?
  2.
The new paragraph is ponderous and out of place. It's a copy-and-paste from Wikipedia and doesn't fit the schema.org<http://schema.org> context (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite). There's a very long sentence that veers into the Royalist English for a camping area. Then the next sentence very obliquely reveals that the American term for a camping pitch is campsite. It never actually says anything as clear as "The American term for a camping pitch is campsite.​" The reason is that this copy/paste from Wikipedia is from an article called Campsite. The term campsite is assumed, and is the context for the write-up. Wikipedia is not using Royalist English by default in this case, preferring the American term, and their write-up makes a lot more sense as the intro to Campsite. It makes much less sense as the intro to Camping Pitch, which is where Richard put it.

  3.
​Should schema.org<http://schema.org> provide some kind of localization for different dialects of English? Camping pitch is a great example because Americans will so thoroughly not understand it, ​since pitch is not understood as an area. (Whereas campsite is self-explanatory.) But in Britain, they'll need to use camping pitch. Can we have parallel terms?


C
​heers,

JD​

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018, 9:31 AM Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com<mailto:richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>> wrote:
Github pull request (#2003<https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/pull/2003>) created to update the description of CampGround and CampingPitch.

CampGround:

A camping site, campsite, or Campground<http://localhost:8080/Campground> is a place used for overnight stay in the outdoors, typically containing individual CampingPitch<http://localhost:8080/CampingPitch> locations.

In British English a campsite is an area, usually divided into a number of pitches, where people can camp overnight using tents or camper vans or caravans; this British English use of the word is synonymous with the American English expression campground. In American English the term campsite generally means an area where an individual, family, group, or military unit can pitch a tent or park a camper; a campground may contain many campsites (Source: Wikipedia see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite).

See also the dedicated document on the use of schema.org for marking up hotels and other forms of accommodations<http://localhost:8080/docs/hotels.html>.


CampingPitch:

A CampingPitch<http://localhost:8080/CampingPitch> is an individual place for overnight stay in the outdoors, typically being part of a larger camping site, or Campground<http://localhost:8080/Campground>.

In British English a campsite, or campground, is an area, usually divided into a number of pitches, where people can camp overnight using tents or camper vans or caravans; this British English use of the word is synonymous with the American English expression campground. In American English the term campsite generally means an area where an individual, family, group, or military unit can pitch a tent or parks a camper; a campground may contain many campsites. (Source: Wikipedia see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite).

See also the dedicated document on the use of schema.org for marking up hotels and other forms of accommodations<http://localhost:8080/docs/hotels.html>.


~Richard.

Richard Wallis
Founder, Data Liberate
http://dataliberate.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis

Twitter: @rjw

On 5 July 2018 at 19:01, Pete Rivett <pete.rivett@adaptive.com<mailto:pete.rivett@adaptive.com>> wrote:
The proposal suggests, but does not make explicit, that in American English campsite is a synonym for CampingPitch.

Nitpick – there is a superfluous “s” in the following:
means an area where an individual, family, group, or military unit can pitch a tent or parks a camper;

Pete



From: Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com<mailto:richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>>
Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2018 6:58 AM
To: Thad Guidry <thadguidry@gmail.com<mailto:thadguidry@gmail.com>>
Cc: schema.org<http://schema.org> Mailing List <public-schemaorg@w3.org<mailto:public-schemaorg@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: Eurocentrism, incorrect unit abbreviations, and proprietary Royalist Engish (sic) terms

@Thad & others,

The Campground<https://schema.org/Campground> type has the following description:

A camping site, campsite, or campground is a place used for overnight stay in the outdoors. In British English a campsite is an area, usually divided into a number of pitches, where people can camp overnight using tents or camper vans or caravans; this British English use of the word is synonymous with the American English expression campground. In American English the term campsite generally means an area where an individual, family, group, or military unit can pitch a tent or parks a camper; a campground may contain many campsites (Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite).

Which I think covers things.

Whereas CampingPitch<https://schema.org/CampingPitch> has this:

A camping pitch is an individual place for overnight stay in the outdoors, typically being part of a larger camping site.

Which, under the current discussion, is a little lacking.

I therefore propose this:

A [[CampingPitch]] is an individual place for overnight stay in the outdoors, typically being part of a larger [[Campground]].

In British English a campsite, or campground, is an area, usually divided into a number of pitches, where people can camp overnight using tents or camper vans or caravans; this British English use of the word is synonymous with the American English expression campground. In American English the term campsite generally means an area where an individual, family, group, or military unit can pitch a tent or parks a camper; a campground may contain many campsites.
(Source: Wikipedia see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite).

Thoughts/comments?

~Richard.


Richard Wallis
Founder, Data Liberate
http://dataliberate.com

Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis

Twitter: @rjw

On 5 July 2018 at 14:12, Thad Guidry <thadguidry@gmail.com<mailto:thadguidry@gmail.com>> wrote:
Since I care more about "Getting things done"...

As to the Campsite/Campground ... the USA and its government is fairly clear and standardized on a Campground being the larger area and individual reservable "pitchs" as being called "campsites".  The NPS.gov has the data available as well with annual campsite bookings.  Here's one example:  https://www.nps.gov/maca/planyourvisit/campgrounds.htm


And Texas and other states started "campsite" or "camping pitch" specific booking system just this year. https://tpwd.texas.gov/state-parks/park-reservation-information/site-specific-booking


So we probably could make mention about "campsite" and "campground" in the definition to improve things.  So let's at least do that to make things clear on both sides. :-)

A camping pitch (in the USA, a campsite) is an individual place for overnight stay in the outdoors, typically being part of a larger camping site or campground.

@Richard - would you mind doing that to improve the definition a bit ?

-Thad




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