Re: Eurocentrism, incorrect unit abbreviations, and proprietary Royalist Engish (sic) terms

I agree that it would work perfectly the same for machines with identifiers
like Wikidata uses for example ("Q2" instead of "Earth"). But using English
was a design decision to make it easier for humans to use I'm assuming, and
as Gregg pointed out many organizations standardize on American English.
Even though Joe is using inflammatory language, and probably shouldn't, his
point is basically the same. I'm arguing more generally though, that
regardless of the reason for a term to be changed, as they already do
sometimes, maybe guidance could be given on how often it's allowed, thereby
simplifying at least that part of the discussion.

Anthony


On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 2:07 PM David Elie Raymond Christophe Ammouial <
david.elie.raymond.christophe.ammouial@everis.com> wrote:

> In my opinion it's mostly irrelevant what the class name is called. A
> Dutch, French or Portuguese speaker won't understand either and that's
> fine. Should we discard all names because the majority of the world in 2018
> won't understand them in their native language?
>
> This is like discussing whether "else" in programming languages should be
> replaced by "otherwise". The fact that it mimics some familiar word is a
> help for some but at the end of the day it's still a machine-readable,
> technical term, that needs proper documentation for implementors to use
> correctly.
>
> And Joe, I would recommend stopping using the invented phrase "Royalist
> English" if you seek credibility as a standards advocate. Plus it's
> provocative, which is not a favorable attitude inside consensus-seeking
> dynamics. Some people have already expressed their feeling about that and
> have been ignored.
>
> David
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Joe Duarte <songofapollo@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:33:52 PM
> *To:* richard.wallis@dataliberate.com
> *Cc:* pete.rivett@adaptive.com; thadguidry@gmail.com; schema.org Mailing
> List
> *Subject:* Re: Eurocentrism, incorrect unit abbreviations, and
> proprietary Royalist Engish (sic) terms
>
> ​Hi all – I'm puzzled again. ​
> How does this
> ​revision ​
> improve the situation? It still uses Royalist English
> ​ instead of American – that is, it still uses CampingPitch, which
> American publishers and web developers will be unfamiliar with. The
> American term is campsite. ​According to Michael Andrews, Indians also use
> campsite. I see three issues:
>
>    1. ​Why are we using Royalist English for official terms? By default,
>    shouldn't we be using American English since that's the vast majority of
>    the English-speaking user base in 2018?
>    2. The new paragraph is ponderous and out of place. It's a
>    copy-and-paste from Wikipedia and doesn't fit the schema.org context (
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite). There's a very long sentence
>    that veers into the Royalist English for a camping *area*. Then the
>    next sentence *very obliquely* reveals that the American term for a
>    camping pitch is campsite. It never actually says anything as clear as "The
>    American term for a camping pitch is campsite.​" The reason is that this
>    copy/paste from Wikipedia *is from an article called Campsite*. The
>    term campsite is assumed, and is the context for the write-up. Wikipedia is
>    not using Royalist English by default in this case, preferring the American
>    term, and their write-up makes a lot more sense as the intro to Campsite.
>    It makes much less sense as the intro to Camping Pitch, which is where
>    Richard put it.
>
>    3. ​Should schema.org provide some kind of localization for different
>    dialects of English? Camping pitch is a great example because Americans
>    will so thoroughly not understand it, ​since *pitch *is not understood
>    as an area. (Whereas campsite is self-explanatory.) But in Britain, they'll
>    need to use camping pitch. Can we have parallel terms?
>
>
> C
> ​heers,
>
> JD​
>
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018, 9:31 AM Richard Wallis <
> richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> wrote:
>
>> Github pull request (#2003
>> <https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/pull/2003>) created to update
>> the description of CampGround and CampingPitch.
>>
>> *CampGround:*
>>
>> A camping site, campsite, or Campground
>> <http://localhost:8080/Campground> is a place used for overnight stay in
>> the outdoors, typically containing individual CampingPitch
>> <http://localhost:8080/CampingPitch> locations.
>>
>> In British English a campsite is an area, usually divided into a number
>> of pitches, where people can camp overnight using tents or camper vans or
>> caravans; this British English use of the word is synonymous with the
>> American English expression campground. In American English the term
>> campsite generally means an area where an individual, family, group, or
>> military unit can pitch a tent or park a camper; a campground may contain
>> many campsites (Source: Wikipedia see
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite).
>>
>> See also the dedicated document on the use of schema.org for marking up
>> hotels and other forms of accommodations
>> <http://localhost:8080/docs/hotels.html>.
>>
>>
>> *CampingPitch:*
>>
>> A CampingPitch <http://localhost:8080/CampingPitch> is an individual
>> place for overnight stay in the outdoors, typically being part of a larger
>> camping site, or Campground <http://localhost:8080/Campground>.
>>
>> In British English a campsite, or campground, is an area, usually divided
>> into a number of pitches, where people can camp overnight using tents or
>> camper vans or caravans; this British English use of the word is synonymous
>> with the American English expression campground. In American English the
>> term campsite generally means an area where an individual, family, group,
>> or military unit can pitch a tent or parks a camper; a campground may
>> contain many campsites. (Source: Wikipedia see
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite).
>>
>> See also the dedicated document on the use of schema.org for marking up
>> hotels and other forms of accommodations
>> <http://localhost:8080/docs/hotels.html>.
>>
>>
>> ~Richard.
>>
>> Richard Wallis
>> Founder, Data Liberate
>> http://dataliberate.com
>> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis
>> Twitter: @rjw
>>
>> On 5 July 2018 at 19:01, Pete Rivett <pete.rivett@adaptive.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The proposal suggests, but does not make explicit, that in American
>>> English campsite is a synonym for CampingPitch.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nitpick – there is a superfluous “s” in the following:
>>>
>>> means an area where an individual, family, group, or military unit can
>>> pitch a tent or parks a camper;
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 5, 2018 6:58 AM
>>> *To:* Thad Guidry <thadguidry@gmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* schema.org Mailing List <public-schemaorg@w3.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: Eurocentrism, incorrect unit abbreviations, and
>>> proprietary Royalist Engish (sic) terms
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> @Thad & others,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The Campground <https://schema.org/Campground> type has the following
>>> description:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A camping site, campsite, or campground is a place used for overnight
>>> stay in the outdoors. In British English a campsite is an area, usually
>>> divided into a number of pitches, where people can camp overnight using
>>> tents or camper vans or caravans; this British English use of the word is
>>> synonymous with the American English expression campground. In American
>>> English the term campsite generally means an area where an individual,
>>> family, group, or military unit can pitch a tent or parks a camper; a
>>> campground may contain many campsites (Source: Wikipedia, the free
>>> encyclopedia, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Which I think covers things.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Whereas CampingPitch <https://schema.org/CampingPitch> has this:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A camping pitch is an individual place for overnight stay in the
>>> outdoors, typically being part of a larger camping site.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Which, under the current discussion, is a little lacking.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I therefore propose this:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A [[CampingPitch]] is an individual place for overnight stay in the
>>> outdoors, typically being part of a larger [[Campground]].
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In British English a campsite, or campground, is an area, usually
>>> divided into a number of pitches, where people can camp overnight using
>>> tents or camper vans or caravans; this British English use of the word is
>>> synonymous with the American English expression campground. In American
>>> English the term *campsite* generally means an area where an
>>> individual, family, group, or military unit can pitch a tent or parks a
>>> camper; a campground may contain many campsites.
>>>
>>> (Source: Wikipedia see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thoughts/comments?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ~Richard.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard Wallis
>>>
>>> Founder, Data Liberate
>>>
>>> http://dataliberate.com
>>>
>>> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis
>>>
>>> Twitter: @rjw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5 July 2018 at 14:12, Thad Guidry <thadguidry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Since I care more about "Getting things done"...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As to the Campsite/Campground ... the USA and its government is fairly
>>> clear and standardized on a Campground being the larger area and individual
>>> reservable "pitchs" as being called "campsites".  The NPS.gov has the data
>>> available as well with annual campsite bookings.  Here's one example:
>>> https://www.nps.gov/maca/planyourvisit/campgrounds.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And Texas and other states started "campsite" or "camping pitch"
>>> specific booking system just this year.
>>> https://tpwd.texas.gov/state-parks/park-reservation-information/site-specific-booking
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So we probably could make mention about "campsite" and "campground" in
>>> the definition to improve things.  So let's at least do that to make things
>>> clear on both sides. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A camping pitch *(in the USA, a campsite)* is an individual place for
>>> overnight stay in the outdoors, typically being part of a larger camping
>>> site *or campground.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *@Richard* - would you mind doing that to improve the definition a bit ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Thad
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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