Re: (human) identity fabric (agents concepts linked)

On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 01:09, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
wrote:

> On 5/17/21 6:00 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, 17 May 2021 at 02:24, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 5/15/21 6:55 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 16 May 2021 at 00:09, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/15/21 5:21 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 18:14, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/14/21 3:26 PM, Timothy Holborn wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, re: clarifications,
>>>>
>>>> What did it do back in ~2011/2 when I first installed it? (Vs. now?). I
>>>> can pull the dates, but you likely have them in your licensing server??  I
>>>> was trying to do a POC via building a heritage capability as an initial
>>>> usecase, at the time.... (supporting a Hysterical/ historical society)...
>>>>
>>>> Does it have more functionality since then?  I assumed the answer was
>>>> "yes" particularly given the status of "web payments" (pre credentials),
>>>> way back then (before I ended up on the lists, something, I didn't consider
>>>> would ever happen in my life, at the time)...
>>>>
>>>> Limitations linked to creating a knowledge banking framework. I started
>>>> concepts in 2000 ("information bank" or ibank) which progressed to
>>>> "knowledge banking" circa 2011/2012 after doing some work "updating" old
>>>> work, from mid 2010 (indigenous application started 2009/10)..
>>>>
>>>> I think you're first "dataspaces" demo was 2007???  V.interested in
>>>> "temporal web" / provenance solutions....
>>>>
>>>> Dignity enhancing web (vs. web slavery, or worse).
>>>>
>>>> Timothy Holborn.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Timothy,
>>>>
>>>> Regarding Identity, Identification, Authentication, and Authorization
>>>> nothing has changed in Virtuoso.
>>>>
>>>> What has changed outside Virtuoso, via complimentary tools and services
>>>> that we provide are as follows:
>>>>
>>>> [1] Browser Extensions for creating Private Keys, X.509 Certificates,
>>>> Identifiers (WebIDs and NetIDs), and associated Profile Docs -- basically,
>>>> killing the headache left by predictable demise of <keygen/>
>>>>
>>>> [2] Setting up WebID-TLS + Delegation from a Browser so that the whole
>>>> thing "just works" and users aren't exposed to what they may perceive as
>>>> complexity re entity relationship type (and associated semantics)
>>>> triangulation
>>>>
>>>> The implications of the above are as follows, using a Chromium or
>>>> Mozilla browser:
>>>>
>>>> [1] You can create credentials using your browser that are stored to an
>>>> OS-provided Keystore (e.g., macOS Keychain) or PKCS#12 file
>>>>
>>>> [2] You can write data to a Data Space (e.g., OpenLink Data Spaces or
>>>> Solid Pod) subject to ACLs using WebID-TLS (with Delegation if so desired
>>>> i.e., kill off the UI/UX issues associated with browser restarts since
>>>> Person and their User Agents have distinguished, but related identity)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tools that demonstrate these capabilities include:
>>>>
>>>> [1] YouID <http://youid.openlinksw.com/>
>>>>
>>>> [2] OpenLink Structured Data Sniffer
>>>>
>>>> <https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/openlink-structured-data/egdaiaihbdoiibopledjahjaihbmjhdj?hl=en>
>>>>
>>>> [3] OpenLink Structured Data Sniffer for Mozilla
>>>> <https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/openlink-structured-data-sniff/>
>>>>
>>>> As for Virtuoso, it hasn't changed bar adding support for WebID-OIDC
>>>> which enables compatibility with Solid Pods for read-write operations via
>>>> WebDAV/LDP mounting functionality etc..
>>>>
>>>> Long story short, we are still waiting for everyone to catch up :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> OpenLink certainly has been ahead of the curve
>>>
>>> I'm reminded of OSDB: https://osdb.openlinksw.com/osdb
>>>
>>> In particular this image:
>>>
>>> https://osdb.openlinksw.com/img/dastklohq01y.gif
>>>
>>> This is the kind of thing I envisage as a next iteration of the read
>>> write web
>>>
>>> The idea here being that each of those modular agents are moving in time
>>> to a certain rhythm
>>>
>>> I dont think we can easily make something like in that diagram today,
>>> aside from how the web already operates.  You visit a page, you might tweet
>>> it, or share it, it gets indexed by a search engine etc.  Yes, it one way,
>>> but alot of centralization build in there
>>>
>>> What if the web had a more temporal set of heart beats which the agents
>>> could be small, compact, modular, robust.  Also finite in nature due to
>>> block chains being finite resources.  Or as stated in paper trail some
>>> teams collaborating or competing in different contests.
>>>
>>> What is needed?
>>>
>>> - Tying read write agents to block chains using URIs (so standardize a
>>> URI scheme to hook into a block chain)
>>> - Ways to create fragments of a block chain that can live as mirrored
>>> claims (so some schema)
>>> - Ability to traverse chains in type, and data in time
>>> - Ability to save the state of the agents, as well as perhaps the logic,
>>> the code, the deployment (we have VCS for this)
>>> - Ability for state to evolve in time, so watching for changes, for
>>> deployments
>>> - Ability to identify agents (URIs) and described them (Linked Data)
>>> - Ability for agents to interact with one another, read write verbs
>>> (e.g. PUT/POST/PATCH)
>>>
>>> All this can come from leveraging existing timestamp servers, providing
>>> a heartbeat for multi agent read write systems, largely gluing together the
>>> pieces we already have
>>>
>>> Perhaps OpenLink can lead the way again here, and we can devise a spec
>>> together.  The aim is that gif above.  What tools can we use to get there?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Melvin,
>>>
>>> As you know, we are always happy to lead by example especially when
>>> specs are in place that offer critical foundation for interoperability.
>>> Personally, I believe that are a significant number of specs in place,
>>> hence our ability to quietly create the OpenLink Structured Data Bot
>>> Framework (OSDB).
>>>
>>> Going forward, we are currently looking at URIs and Blockchains which is
>>> an emerging and important frontier as you've already noted in your comments
>>> above.
>>>
>>
>> Excellent!
>>
>> So how advanced is the OSDB?  What can it do?  I've made a few bots
>> before, and perhaps you'll agree with me on this, they are nice enough
>> proof of concepts, but they are somewhat toothless.  They lack robustness,
>> and need maintenance.  Can easily be turned on or off, and very much prone
>> to race conditions.  After all of this, they tend not to be all that useful.
>>
>>
>> OSDB can generate a REST-ful interaction console for any API described
>> using the OpenAPI standard or RDF (e.g., Actions described using terms from
>> the Schema.org Vocabulary). Naturally, any OSDB instance is a proxy for
>> interacting with all the Actions that it has distilled from API
>> documentation.
>>
>> OSDB was developed in anticipation of Siri and friends becomes extensible
>> via APIs. For example, simply giving Siri new skills which are basically a
>> collection of Actions.
>>
>> We are still waiting ...
>>
>>
>>
>> Let's give a test.  Let's say I want to make a simple step counter.  It
>> hooks into my smart watch.
>>
>>
>> You simply need the counter to be documented using either OpenAPI or RDF,
>> that's it.
>>
>>
>> It hooks into my phone pedometer, my treadmill, a bunch of stuff running
>> at the same time.
>>
>>
>> Once the step above is completed you can integrate into any device that
>> has the notion of Actions and their execution.
>>
>>
>> It then wants to store my data, and ensure that all devices can write to
>> the store without conflicts.  Also, importantly the store might go down in
>> a DB or a pod or git, and it should just be able to come back up elsewhere,
>> ditto the bot that is managing all of this.
>>
>> In your terminology, "it just works".
>>
>>
>> It will "Just Work" if the IoT devices understand Actions distilled from
>> API by way of documentation using OpenAPI or RDF (e.g., using terms from
>> Schema.org or other vocabs).
>>
>>
>>
>> So how close do you think we are to this, with your bots?
>>
>>
>> The "Bot" is OSDB is really about its ability to be integrated into bots
>> rather than being a bot itself per se.. It is a Bot capability enhancer, so
>> to speak.
>>
>>
>> This is the style of thing I'd like to spec with a supra operating system
>> that offers web scale semaphores.  That's what binding to a time stamp
>> server gives you.
>>
>> So, what's required to do this?
>>
>>
>> So-called Smart Agents like Siri, Alexa, Google etc.. being extensible
>> using a common method e.g., the OpenAPI or RDF standards. This hasn't
>> happened yet, unfortunately. We even assumed the API Economy folks
>> (typically anti RDF) would at least use OpenAPI (their own spec) but that
>> hasn't happened either :(
>>
>
> There are a lot of anti RDF folks out there.
>
>
> Yes.
>
>
> We've always tried to encourage (semantic) web standards and RDF in this
> group.  There are more standards now emerging around JSON(-LD) and
> schema.org is becoming a de facto standard for the semantic web
>
>
> Yes, JSON is becoming the preferred format for data represented as entity
> relationship graphs. Like everything else, unbeknownst to RDF detractors,
> JSON and RDF are compatible since the former is a data representation
> format and the latter a abstract data definition language.
>
> We punctuate the comment above in our recent OSDS updates that transform
> both JSON and CSV to RDF deployed using Linked Data principles.
> Fundamentally, you click and "it just works!"
>
>
>
> Regarding Smart Agents instead of massive centralized personal assistants,
> why dont we aim to create more decentralized and distributed personal
> agents with declarative data store state machines which operate on via
> standards (perhaps ones we create).
>
> Working with "small data" rather than "big data"
>
>
> Our world view has always been about "small data" rather than "big data"
> i.e., data access by reference rather than data copying which is
> fundamentally limited and inherently centralized.
>
>
>
> But working together
>
> Dont know much about OpenAPI, would it be a good inspiration for a spec?
>
>
> It isn't widely adopted by its own supporters which indicates to me that
> it isn't "good inspiration for a spec".
>
> Logic as the universal conceptual schema is the spec, IMHO.
>
> RDF as a formalization of EAV is the abstract language for data definition
> informed by a universal conceptual schema, despite all the distractions
> from detractors.
>
> At OpenLink, we believe the specs are done. We are putting our energy into
> apps and services that demonstrate what's possible etc..
>

So then; the belief is that the ideological / social / geo-political
issues; are simply about a lack of documentation due to the focal point of
workers & the tasks assigned to them?

by all means, that's a far easiest problem to solve.

I'm mindful; that the shape of a spear, is similar to the shape of a pen;
and is in-turn similar, to the shame of a mouse-cursor...

maybe the solution can be made, in 'one click'..?

Timothy Holborn.

>
> Kingsley
>
>
>
>> Same stuff we've always done, link from one URI / UUID to another.  And
>> have the logic respect that.  So, basically middleware stuff, bread and
>> butter for openlink!
>>
>>
>> Yep!
>>
>>
>> Links:
>>
>>
>> [1] https://spec.openapis.org/oas/v3.1.0 -- OpenAPI
>>
>>
>> Kingsley
>>
>>
>>
>>> Kingsley
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Kingsley
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 15 May 2021, 5:07 am Kingsley Idehen, <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/14/21 1:07 PM, Timothy Holborn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Overall; the underlying intent; was to create complex AUTH /
>>>>> Endification / Identification fabric capabilities; that could in-turn,
>>>>> support complex (hyper-private) semantics, that could only be brought about
>>>>> post-technological growth; with support of political will...  i"m not sure
>>>>> that' going to happen (in the western world, first or at all); but,  i
>>>>> wanted to make a note that the examples provided by openlink software
>>>>> (virtuoso) or Project Hydra (samvera nowadays?) didn't have enough
>>>>> functionality back in 2011/2; as such, i sought to improve it, to support -
>>>>> human beings, unto 'rule of law', for a moral economy, etc...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Timothy,
>>>>>
>>>>> To be clear:
>>>>>
>>>>> OpenLink Virtuoso <https://virtuoso.openlinksw.com> is a platform
>>>>> that includes a multi-protocol authentication layer. One of the many
>>>>> supported protocols is WebID-TLS. We also support NetID-TLS which is
>>>>> basically WebID-TLS decoupled from http: scheme URIs e.g., it supports
>>>>> ldap: scheme URIs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Authorization wise, our technology is driven 100% by RDF
>>>>> sentences/statements (informed by terms from relevant ontologies).
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see limitations in RDF that aren't surmounted by the use of
>>>>> SPARQL as a Rules Language (like Datalog back in the day) re authorization
>>>>> via access controls.
>>>>>
>>>>> With the clarifications above outlined, what limitation are you
>>>>> speaking about?
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Kingsley Idehen 
>>>>> Founder & CEO
>>>>> OpenLink Software
>>>>> Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com
>>>>> Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com
>>>>> Weblogs (Blogs):
>>>>> Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog
>>>>> Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog
>>>>> Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers
>>>>>
>>>>> Personal Weblogs (Blogs):
>>>>> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen
>>>>> Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/
>>>>>               http://kidehen.blogspot.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Profile Pages:
>>>>> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/
>>>>> Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen
>>>>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen
>>>>> Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
>>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>>>>>
>>>>> Web Identities (WebID):
>>>>> Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i
>>>>>         : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Kingsley Idehen 
>>>> Founder & CEO
>>>> OpenLink Software
>>>> Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com
>>>> Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com
>>>> Weblogs (Blogs):
>>>> Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog
>>>> Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog
>>>> Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers
>>>>
>>>> Personal Weblogs (Blogs):
>>>> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen
>>>> Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/
>>>>               http://kidehen.blogspot.com
>>>>
>>>> Profile Pages:
>>>> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/
>>>> Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen
>>>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen
>>>> Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>>>>
>>>> Web Identities (WebID):
>>>> Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i
>>>>         : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Kingsley Idehen 
>>> Founder & CEO
>>> OpenLink Software
>>> Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com
>>> Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com
>>> Weblogs (Blogs):
>>> Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog
>>> Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog
>>> Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers
>>>
>>> Personal Weblogs (Blogs):
>>> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen
>>> Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/
>>>               http://kidehen.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> Profile Pages:
>>> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/
>>> Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen
>>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen
>>> Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>>>
>>> Web Identities (WebID):
>>> Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i
>>>         : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Kingsley Idehen 
>> Founder & CEO
>> OpenLink Software
>> Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com
>> Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com
>> Weblogs (Blogs):
>> Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog
>> Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog
>> Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers
>>
>> Personal Weblogs (Blogs):
>> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen
>> Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/
>>               http://kidehen.blogspot.com
>>
>> Profile Pages:
>> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/
>> Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen
>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen
>> Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>>
>> Web Identities (WebID):
>> Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i
>>         : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this
>>
>>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Kingsley Idehen 
> Founder & CEO
> OpenLink Software
> Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com
> Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com
> Weblogs (Blogs):
> Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog
> Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog
> Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers
>
> Personal Weblogs (Blogs):
> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen
> Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/
>               http://kidehen.blogspot.com
>
> Profile Pages:
> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/
> Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen
> Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>
> Web Identities (WebID):
> Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i
>         : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this
>
>