- From: Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
- Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 11:08:22 -0400
- To: public-rww@w3.org
- Message-ID: <8d7bba4f-3c70-029e-e29c-54f43c6f59af@openlinksw.com>
On 5/17/21 6:00 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 17 May 2021 at 02:24, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com
> <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>> wrote:
>
> On 5/15/21 6:55 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 16 May 2021 at 00:09, Kingsley Idehen
>> <kidehen@openlinksw.com <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/15/21 5:21 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 18:14, Kingsley Idehen
>>> <kidehen@openlinksw.com <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 5/14/21 3:26 PM, Timothy Holborn wrote:
>>>> Sorry, re: clarifications,
>>>>
>>>> What did it do back in ~2011/2 when I first installed
>>>> it? (Vs. now?). I can pull the dates, but you likely
>>>> have them in your licensing server?? I was trying to
>>>> do a POC via building a heritage capability as an
>>>> initial usecase, at the time.... (supporting a
>>>> Hysterical/ historical society)...
>>>>
>>>> Does it have more functionality since then? I assumed
>>>> the answer was "yes" particularly given the status of
>>>> "web payments" (pre credentials), way back then (before
>>>> I ended up on the lists, something, I didn't consider
>>>> would ever happen in my life, at the time)...
>>>>
>>>> Limitations linked to creating a knowledge banking
>>>> framework. I started concepts in 2000 ("information
>>>> bank" or ibank) which progressed to "knowledge banking"
>>>> circa 2011/2012 after doing some work "updating" old
>>>> work, from mid 2010 (indigenous application started
>>>> 2009/10)..
>>>>
>>>> I think you're first "dataspaces" demo was 2007???
>>>> V.interested in "temporal web" / provenance solutions....
>>>>
>>>> Dignity enhancing web (vs. web slavery, or worse).
>>>>
>>>> Timothy Holborn.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Timothy,
>>>
>>> Regarding Identity, Identification, Authentication, and
>>> Authorization nothing has changed in Virtuoso.
>>>
>>> What has changed outside Virtuoso, via complimentary
>>> tools and services that we provide are as follows:
>>>
>>> [1] Browser Extensions for creating Private Keys, X.509
>>> Certificates, Identifiers (WebIDs and NetIDs), and
>>> associated Profile Docs -- basically, killing the
>>> headache left by predictable demise of <keygen/>
>>>
>>> [2] Setting up WebID-TLS + Delegation from a Browser so
>>> that the whole thing "just works" and users aren't
>>> exposed to what they may perceive as complexity re
>>> entity relationship type (and associated semantics)
>>> triangulation
>>>
>>> The implications of the above are as follows, using a
>>> Chromium or Mozilla browser:
>>>
>>> [1] You can create credentials using your browser that
>>> are stored to an OS-provided Keystore (e.g., macOS
>>> Keychain) or PKCS#12 file
>>>
>>> [2] You can write data to a Data Space (e.g., OpenLink
>>> Data Spaces or Solid Pod) subject to ACLs using
>>> WebID-TLS (with Delegation if so desired i.e., kill off
>>> the UI/UX issues associated with browser restarts since
>>> Person and their User Agents have distinguished, but
>>> related identity)
>>>
>>>
>>> Tools that demonstrate these capabilities include:
>>>
>>> [1] YouID <http://youid.openlinksw.com/>
>>>
>>> [2] OpenLink Structured Data Sniffer
>>> <https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/openlink-structured-data/egdaiaihbdoiibopledjahjaihbmjhdj?hl=en>
>>>
>>> [3] OpenLink Structured Data Sniffer for Mozilla
>>> <https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/openlink-structured-data-sniff/>
>>>
>>> As for Virtuoso, it hasn't changed bar adding support
>>> for WebID-OIDC which enables compatibility with Solid
>>> Pods for read-write operations via WebDAV/LDP mounting
>>> functionality etc..
>>>
>>> Long story short, we are still waiting for everyone to
>>> catch up :)
>>>
>>>
>>> OpenLink certainly has been ahead of the curve
>>>
>>> I'm reminded of OSDB: https://osdb.openlinksw.com/osdb
>>> <https://osdb.openlinksw.com/osdb>
>>>
>>> In particular this image:
>>>
>>> https://osdb.openlinksw.com/img/dastklohq01y.gif
>>> <https://osdb.openlinksw.com/img/dastklohq01y.gif>
>>>
>>> This is the kind of thing I envisage as a next iteration of
>>> the read write web
>>>
>>> The idea here being that each of those modular agents are
>>> moving in time to a certain rhythm
>>>
>>> I dont think we can easily make something like in that
>>> diagram today, aside from how the web already operates. You
>>> visit a page, you might tweet it, or share it, it gets
>>> indexed by a search engine etc. Yes, it one way, but alot
>>> of centralization build in there
>>>
>>> What if the web had a more temporal set of heart beats which
>>> the agents could be small, compact, modular, robust. Also
>>> finite in nature due to block chains being finite
>>> resources. Or as stated in paper trail some teams
>>> collaborating or competing in different contests.
>>>
>>> What is needed?
>>>
>>> - Tying read write agents to block chains using URIs (so
>>> standardize a URI scheme to hook into a block chain)
>>> - Ways to create fragments of a block chain that can live as
>>> mirrored claims (so some schema)
>>> - Ability to traverse chains in type, and data in time
>>> - Ability to save the state of the agents, as well as
>>> perhaps the logic, the code, the deployment (we have VCS for
>>> this)
>>> - Ability for state to evolve in time, so watching for
>>> changes, for deployments
>>> - Ability to identify agents (URIs) and described them
>>> (Linked Data)
>>> - Ability for agents to interact with one another, read
>>> write verbs (e.g. PUT/POST/PATCH)
>>>
>>> All this can come from leveraging existing timestamp
>>> servers, providing a heartbeat for multi agent read write
>>> systems, largely gluing together the pieces we already have
>>>
>>> Perhaps OpenLink can lead the way again here, and we can
>>> devise a spec together. The aim is that gif above. What
>>> tools can we use to get there?
>>
>>
>> Hi Melvin,
>>
>> As you know, we are always happy to lead by example
>> especially when specs are in place that offer critical
>> foundation for interoperability. Personally, I believe that
>> are a significant number of specs in place, hence our ability
>> to quietly create the OpenLink Structured Data Bot Framework
>> (OSDB).
>>
>> Going forward, we are currently looking at URIs and
>> Blockchains which is an emerging and important frontier as
>> you've already noted in your comments above.
>>
>>
>> Excellent!
>>
>> So how advanced is the OSDB? What can it do? I've made a few
>> bots before, and perhaps you'll agree with me on this, they are
>> nice enough proof of concepts, but they are somewhat toothless.
>> They lack robustness, and need maintenance. Can easily be turned
>> on or off, and very much prone to race conditions. After all of
>> this, they tend not to be all that useful.
>
>
> OSDB can generate a REST-ful interaction console for any API
> described using the OpenAPI standard or RDF (e.g., Actions
> described using terms from the Schema.org Vocabulary). Naturally,
> any OSDB instance is a proxy for interacting with all the Actions
> that it has distilled from API documentation.
>
> OSDB was developed in anticipation of Siri and friends becomes
> extensible via APIs. For example, simply giving Siri new skills
> which are basically a collection of Actions.
>
> We are still waiting ...
>
>
>>
>> Let's give a test. Let's say I want to make a simple step
>> counter. It hooks into my smart watch.
>
>
> You simply need the counter to be documented using either OpenAPI
> or RDF, that's it.
>
>
>> It hooks into my phone pedometer, my treadmill, a bunch of stuff
>> running at the same time.
>
>
> Once the step above is completed you can integrate into any device
> that has the notion of Actions and their execution.
>
>
>> It then wants to store my data, and ensure that all devices can
>> write to the store without conflicts. Also, importantly the
>> store might go down in a DB or a pod or git, and it should just
>> be able to come back up elsewhere, ditto the bot that is managing
>> all of this.
>>
>> In your terminology, "it just works".
>
>
> It will "Just Work" if the IoT devices understand Actions
> distilled from API by way of documentation using OpenAPI or RDF
> (e.g., using terms from Schema.org or other vocabs).
>
>
>>
>> So how close do you think we are to this, with your bots?
>
>
> The "Bot" is OSDB is really about its ability to be integrated
> into bots rather than being a bot itself per se.. It is a Bot
> capability enhancer, so to speak.
>
>
>> This is the style of thing I'd like to spec with a supra
>> operating system that offers web scale semaphores. That's what
>> binding to a time stamp server gives you.
>>
>> So, what's required to do this?
>
>
> So-called Smart Agents like Siri, Alexa, Google etc.. being
> extensible using a common method e.g., the OpenAPI or RDF
> standards. This hasn't happened yet, unfortunately. We even
> assumed the API Economy folks (typically anti RDF) would at least
> use OpenAPI (their own spec) but that hasn't happened either :(
>
>
> There are a lot of anti RDF folks out there.
Yes.
> We've always tried to encourage (semantic) web standards and RDF in
> this group. There are more standards now emerging around JSON(-LD)
> and schema.org <http://schema.org> is becoming a de facto standard for
> the semantic web
Yes, JSON is becoming the preferred format for data represented as
entity relationship graphs. Like everything else, unbeknownst to RDF
detractors, JSON and RDF are compatible since the former is a data
representation format and the latter a abstract data definition language.
We punctuate the comment above in our recent OSDS updates that transform
both JSON and CSV to RDF deployed using Linked Data principles.
Fundamentally, you click and "it just works!"
>
> Regarding Smart Agents instead of massive centralized personal
> assistants, why dont we aim to create more decentralized and
> distributed personal agents with declarative data store state machines
> which operate on via standards (perhaps ones we create).
>
> Working with "small data" rather than "big data"
Our world view has always been about "small data" rather than "big data"
i.e., data access by reference rather than data copying which is
fundamentally limited and inherently centralized.
>
> But working together
>
> Dont know much about OpenAPI, would it be a good inspiration for a spec?
It isn't widely adopted by its own supporters which indicates to me that
it isn't "good inspiration for a spec".
Logic as the universal conceptual schema is the spec, IMHO.
RDF as a formalization of EAV is the abstract language for data
definition informed by a universal conceptual schema, despite all the
distractions from detractors.
At OpenLink, we believe the specs are done. We are putting our energy
into apps and services that demonstrate what's possible etc..
Kingsley
>
>> Same stuff we've always done, link from one URI / UUID to
>> another. And have the logic respect that. So, basically
>> middleware stuff, bread and butter for openlink!
>
>
> Yep!
>
>
> Links:
>
>
> [1] https://spec.openapis.org/oas/v3.1.0
> <https://spec.openapis.org/oas/v3.1.0> -- OpenAPI
>
>
> Kingsley
>
>>
>>
>> Kingsley
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kingsley
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 15 May 2021, 5:07 am Kingsley Idehen,
>>>> <kidehen@openlinksw.com
>>>> <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 5/14/21 1:07 PM, Timothy Holborn wrote:
>>>>> Overall; the underlying intent; was to create
>>>>> complex AUTH / Endification / Identification
>>>>> fabric capabilities; that could in-turn, support
>>>>> complex (hyper-private) semantics, that could only
>>>>> be brought about post-technological growth; with
>>>>> support of political will... i"m not sure that'
>>>>> going to happen (in the western world, first or at
>>>>> all); but, i wanted to make a note that the
>>>>> examples provided by openlink software (virtuoso)
>>>>> or Project Hydra (samvera nowadays?) didn't have
>>>>> enough functionality back in 2011/2; as such, i
>>>>> sought to improve it, to support - human beings,
>>>>> unto 'rule of law', for a moral economy, etc...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Timothy,
>>>>
>>>> To be clear:
>>>>
>>>> OpenLink Virtuoso <https://virtuoso.openlinksw.com>
>>>> is a platform that includes a multi-protocol
>>>> authentication layer. One of the many supported
>>>> protocols is WebID-TLS. We also support NetID-TLS
>>>> which is basically WebID-TLS decoupled from http:
>>>> scheme URIs e.g., it supports ldap: scheme URIs.
>>>>
>>>> Authorization wise, our technology is driven 100%
>>>> by RDF sentences/statements (informed by terms from
>>>> relevant ontologies).
>>>>
>>>> I don't see limitations in RDF that aren't
>>>> surmounted by the use of SPARQL as a Rules Language
>>>> (like Datalog back in the day) re authorization via
>>>> access controls.
>>>>
>>>> With the clarifications above outlined, what
>>>> limitation are you speaking about?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Kingsley Idehen
>>>> Founder & CEO
>>>> OpenLink Software
>>>> Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com <http://www.openlinksw.com>
>>>> Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com <https://community.openlinksw.com>
>>>> Weblogs (Blogs):
>>>> Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog <https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog>
>>>> Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog <https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog>
>>>> Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers <https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers>
>>>>
>>>> Personal Weblogs (Blogs):
>>>> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen <https://medium.com/@kidehen>
>>>> Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/ <http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/>
>>>> http://kidehen.blogspot.com <http://kidehen.blogspot.com>
>>>>
>>>> Profile Pages:
>>>> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/ <https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/>
>>>> Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen <https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen>
>>>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen <https://twitter.com/kidehen>
>>>> Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about <https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about>
>>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen>
>>>>
>>>> Web Identities (WebID):
>>>> Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i <http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i>
>>>> : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this <http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Kingsley Idehen
>>> Founder & CEO
>>> OpenLink Software
>>> Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com <http://www.openlinksw.com>
>>> Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com <https://community.openlinksw.com>
>>> Weblogs (Blogs):
>>> Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog <https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog>
>>> Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog <https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog>
>>> Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers <https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers>
>>>
>>> Personal Weblogs (Blogs):
>>> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen <https://medium.com/@kidehen>
>>> Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/ <http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/>
>>> http://kidehen.blogspot.com <http://kidehen.blogspot.com>
>>>
>>> Profile Pages:
>>> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/ <https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/>
>>> Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen <https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen>
>>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen <https://twitter.com/kidehen>
>>> Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about <https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about>
>>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen>
>>>
>>> Web Identities (WebID):
>>> Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i <http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i>
>>> : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this <http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Kingsley Idehen
>> Founder & CEO
>> OpenLink Software
>> Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com <http://www.openlinksw.com>
>> Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com <https://community.openlinksw.com>
>> Weblogs (Blogs):
>> Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog <https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog>
>> Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog <https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog>
>> Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers <https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers>
>>
>> Personal Weblogs (Blogs):
>> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen <https://medium.com/@kidehen>
>> Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/ <http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/>
>> http://kidehen.blogspot.com <http://kidehen.blogspot.com>
>>
>> Profile Pages:
>> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/ <https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/>
>> Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen <https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen>
>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen <https://twitter.com/kidehen>
>> Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about <https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about>
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen>
>>
>> Web Identities (WebID):
>> Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i <http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i>
>> : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this <http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this>
>>
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Kingsley Idehen
> Founder & CEO
> OpenLink Software
> Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com <http://www.openlinksw.com>
> Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com <https://community.openlinksw.com>
> Weblogs (Blogs):
> Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog <https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog>
> Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog <https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog>
> Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers <https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers>
>
> Personal Weblogs (Blogs):
> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen <https://medium.com/@kidehen>
> Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/ <http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/>
> http://kidehen.blogspot.com <http://kidehen.blogspot.com>
>
> Profile Pages:
> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/ <https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/>
> Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen <https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen>
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen <https://twitter.com/kidehen>
> Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about <https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about>
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen>
>
> Web Identities (WebID):
> Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i <http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i>
> : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this <http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this>
>
--
Regards,
Kingsley Idehen
Founder & CEO
OpenLink Software
Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com
Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com
Weblogs (Blogs):
Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog
Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog
Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers
Personal Weblogs (Blogs):
Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen
Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/
http://kidehen.blogspot.com
Profile Pages:
Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/
Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen
Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen
Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
Web Identities (WebID):
Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i
: http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this
Received on Monday, 17 May 2021 15:08:43 UTC