- From: Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
- Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 09:59:56 -0400
- To: public-rdf-star@w3.org
- Message-ID: <8a33b40f-4661-8f8a-1325-1e653c9d22a4@openlinksw.com>
On 10/29/20 11:00 PM, Holger Knublauch wrote: > Maybe a way forward is to raise a GitHub ticket along the lines of "Do > we want something like RDF* to become a W3C standard" and wait for > votes. If it gets shot down (however this can work) then let's see if > the various implementers (RDF4J [1], Jena [2] etc) will remove it again. > > BTW this seems to be off-topic from where this thread started, so at > minimum I suggest a different thread. > > Holger > > [1] https://rdf4j.org/documentation/programming/rdfstar/ > [2] https://jena.apache.org/documentation/rdfstar/ A thread already exists titled "Are the names RDF* and SPARQL* worth the confusion?" [1]. Links: [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star/2020Oct/0049.html [2] http://www.semantic-web-journal.net/system/files/swj1791.pdf -- Evaluation of Metadata Representations in RDF stores (* A good read *) [3] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star/2019Aug/0003.html -- My earlier comments about this matter Kingsley > > > On 10/30/2020 12:48 PM, Kingsley Idehen wrote: >> On 10/29/20 9:59 PM, Holger Knublauch wrote: >>> On 10/30/2020 10:39 AM, Kingsley Idehen wrote: >>>> On 10/29/20 7:54 PM, Holger Knublauch wrote: >>>>> Yes exactly. We are all thinking out loud here and the outcome is >>>>> likely going to be some glued-on patch that isn't going to be perfect >>>>> from a theoretical POV. But the fact that RDF is already widely used >>>>> and implemented is an opportunity, not a problem. >>>> Hi Holger, >>>> >>>> We have an opportunity to make RDF less confusing, and that's achieved >>>> via clarity. >>>> >>>> From my vantage point, here's the problem: >>>> >>>> Just as we reached a point where RDF understanding was gaining >>>> traction, >>>> along come both RDF* and SPARQL* to muddy the waters. >>> Or: just as we reached a point where RDF was gaining traction, along >>> came Property Graphs with built-in support for property edges. And >>> they also took market share away, partly because of that. >> >> No how I see it. >> >> Data Integration, Verifiable Identity, and Privacy in general are >> fundamental problems uniquely solved by Entity Relationship Graphs >> constructed from RDF and deployed using Linked Data principles. >> >> RDF isn't about Data Silos, and it is simply a superior solution to real >> problems. >> >> Property Graphs tell a story. >> >> RDF can tell a deeper story that's actually much more useful. Let's give >> it a chance. >> >> >>> Not every RDF vendor must support RDF*, just like not every vendor >>> supports OWL 2 or SHACL. Time will tell and people will vote with >>> their feet. >> >> None of that justifies clouding RDF in confusion. >> >> >>> At least those that do see enough benefits in these features should >>> have a shared spec to start with, because what we have seen in the >>> last two years is many different ad hoc implementations. >> >> None of that warrants adding "*" to an existing standard and then >> generating confusion. >> >> Many on this list understand what Syntax Sugar is, that isn't the case >> when dealing with customers and prospects. In short, some might find the >> Syntax Sugar explanation defensive etc.. >> >> >>> I can confirm that many of our customers do like the features of >>> proper reification in practice. The previous alternatives such as >>> rdf:Statements were not good enough IMHO. >> >> I can confirm we have customers doing fine with SPARQL Named Graphs or >> Reified RDF statements etc.. >> >> When folks talk to me about Property Graph I just get to the heart of >> the matter by helping them understand the following: >> >> 1. Every Graph isn't a Network -- since all the connections aren't >> transitive in nature >> >> 2. Every Network is a Graph constructed from connections that are >> transitive in nature >> >> Then I demonstrate how you can perform Network Analytics on an RDF-based >> Entity Relationship Graph using SPARQL and Transitivity >> >> >>> BTW this isn't just about metadata. >> As per the doc I shared, and my very early comments in this forum, it is >> about metadata since I regard describing documents or named graphs >> metadata creation endeavors. >> >> If two documents contain conflicting birthdays for an individual I can >> use the description of one document as the basis for crafting a solution >> that determines the preferred source of birthday information. The same >> applies to issues such a relationship time duration, and many of the >> other examples knocked up by the Property Graph promoters. >> >> >>> One use case that we like is to attach sh:severity and sh:message, >>> possibly sh:deactivated to SHACL constraint triples. Right now these >>> can only be stored per shape, but that is very verbose and causes an >>> explosion of unnecessary shapes. >>> Without a W3C spec for something like RDF* there is no way that a >>> future SHACL version could include such a nicer syntax. >> >> Again, verbosity isn't the basis for tacking on "*" to RDF or SPARQL >> with verbosity-hiding Syntax Sugar as the solution. >> >> >>> I do believe that such future specs would preface RDF*-specific >>> features into special sections so that not every vendor needs to >>> support those next-gen features either. >> >> This is about clarity over confusion. Vendor implementations is a >> distant second re issues of concern. >> >> >>> I do agree that messaging matters and the name will matter, so instead >>> of calling this a completely new language I think we should aim at >>> representing this as a set of syntax conventions and optional >>> extensions that do not break anything (unless someone loads TTL* files >>> etc). >> >> I don't have a problem with that, at least it doesn't create the kind of >> confusion that concerns me right now :) >> >> >> Kingsley >> >>> Holger >>> >>> >>>> If there were no existing solutions to expressing metadata that >>>> describes data depicted as a graph that would be one clear problem, >>>> but >>>> that simply isn't the case [1]. >>>> >>>> How else does one describe the signage and surface combination >>>> delivered >>>> by an RDF graph and the document from which it originates? All >>>> solutions >>>> to this problem include some degree of verbosity if precision is the >>>> quest. >>>> >>>> This is neither RDF nor SPARQL, so why not give it a different name >>>> and >>>> spell out its syntax-sugar orientation clearly? >>>> >>>> Links: >>>> >>>> [1] http://www.semantic-web-journal.net/system/files/swj1791.pdf -- >>>> Evaluation of Metadata Representations in RDF stores >>>> > -- Regards, Kingsley Idehen Founder & CEO OpenLink Software Home Page: http://www.openlinksw.com Community Support: https://community.openlinksw.com Weblogs (Blogs): Company Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-software-blog Virtuoso Blog: https://medium.com/virtuoso-blog Data Access Drivers Blog: https://medium.com/openlink-odbc-jdbc-ado-net-data-access-drivers Personal Weblogs (Blogs): Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@kidehen Legacy Blogs: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen/ http://kidehen.blogspot.com Profile Pages: Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/kidehen/ Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Kingsley-Uyi-Idehen Twitter: https://twitter.com/kidehen Google+: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen Web Identities (WebID): Personal: http://kingsley.idehen.net/public_home/kidehen/profile.ttl#i : http://id.myopenlink.net/DAV/home/KingsleyUyiIdehen/Public/kingsley.ttl#this
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Received on Friday, 30 October 2020 14:00:13 UTC