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Re: Can a publication change over time?

From: Garth Conboy <garth@google.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 14:19:03 -0700
Message-ID: <CADExNBNwNCQsmgp1JeYfbRM-0PNk5WBMCCmHqmhBQdoX+TtdNw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org>
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
I made my comment on this topic on the definition thread -- likely matching
the opinion of many of the "traditional" publishers in our midst.

To me publishing a publication on a publication date, is meaningless if the
"primary resources" change thereafter.

Best,
   Garth

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org>
wrote:

> > It’s about a publication that is changing “on the fly” (with the
> understanding of the publisher/author, of course)
>
> This is where thing may get muddy on the Web. In many cases, nothing will
> notify an author that a Web resource he has included in his Web Publication
> has changed. *The Web is not a CMS*. It can change suddenly because a
> picture embedded in the resource has been modified, because a CSS used by
> the resource has been updated (I use indirect modifications, but direct
> modifications of an html resource are even more obvious). On the Web
> resources are shared, control is shared, an author can't control the detail
> of all the resources he's using in a Web Publication.
>
> So when you say "the understanding" Leonard, I understand "the
> understanding that a publication can change on the fly without his
> knowledge". It is what you mean?
>
> Laurent
>
>
> Le 25 juil. 2017 à 22:14, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> a écrit :
>
> Signatures are something that I see as more relevant when we get to
> Packaged WP…
>
> But coming back here about change – this is **not** about
> versions/editions/revisions.  It’s about a publication that is changing “on
> the fly” (with the understanding of the publisher/author, of course).
>
> Leonard
>
> *From: *"Teixeira, Mateus" <mteixeira@wwnorton.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:47 PM
> *To: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>, Hadrien Gardeur <
> hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> *Cc: *"public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Can a publication change over time?
>
> Yes, Git is exactly the source of inspiration. Evan Yamanishi, here at
> Norton and also a PWG member, has helped us implement a digital production
> workflow along these lines.
>
> The digital signature point is very interesting. It's important that we
> keep archival (i.e. long-term preservation) needs in mind, as our group
> outlined [1] during the F2F meeting in NYC (the details of that use case
> and its scope within WP/PWP are TBD, as we haven't discussed it at all yet).
>
> [1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sXM51YzrfahFmkJBL-
> rt69Jvo0LGbOesleuEgwRWvP0/edit?usp=sharing
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1sXM51YzrfahFmkJBL-rt69Jvo0LGbOesleuEgwRWvP0%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=02%7C01%7C%7C4c07643a6ad043ec105808d4d395fa54%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636366088492276050&sdata=DDcaTS2Y74cGjaKhhbIq3tqTgIiWBvXT2k6yvkYXA%2FU%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> *From: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Date: *Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:31 PM
> *To: *"Teixeira, Mateus" <mteixeira@wwnorton.com>, Hadrien Gardeur <
> hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> *Cc: *"public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> *Subject: *RE: Can a publication change over time?
>
> If authors can attach a digital signature, this would provide a strong
> means of verifying that no changes have occurred to the version that the
> user obtains. Perhaps what is needed is conceptually similar to what we
> have in Git: I can give a specific revision a name (i.e., a tag), then
> digitally sign it.
>
> *From:* Teixeira, Mateus [mailto:mteixeira@wwnorton.com
> <mteixeira@wwnorton.com>]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 25, 2017 3:21 PM
> *To:* Hadrien Gardeur <hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>; Leonard Rosenthol <
> lrosenth@adobe.com>
> *Cc:* public-publ-wg@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Can a publication change over time?
>
> I agree that from a publishing and distribution perspective—particularly
> educational publishing—WP support for continuous updates will be critical.
>
> Publishers tend to view traditional (i.e., print) publications similar to
> how developers view releases and snapshots, except we call them printings
> and editions. Publications are indeed "published" at a certain time and
> with a certain robustness and completeness of content, but this content can
> evolve continuously throughout the publication's lifespan. Even editions
> can be viewed as sequential, major versions of a publication. In fact, this
> is how we at Norton approach ebook versioning in EPUB.
>
> That said, I agree with Hadrien's thoughts. I also add that the
> (traditional) publishing use case for continuous updates will more likely
> resemble coherent "releases" than minor incremental updates, at least until
> our digital distribution model evolves so drastically as to make such minor
> updates easy to implement and to push to the world. Perhaps a way to
> approach this in WP is a recognition that WPs can be updated, but must be
> done so with a specific version tagged to it—there are others in the WG who
> could word this more eloquently and technically than I can.
>
>
> *From: *Hadrien Gardeur <hadrien.gardeur@feedbooks.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:06 PM
> *To: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> *Cc: *"public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Can a publication change over time?
> *Resent-From: *<public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:05 PM
>
> Since we're on the Web, I think it's safe to say that everything can and
> will be updated over time. No matter what we say and write, this won't
> change the way things work on the Web.
>
> During the call, someone said (Garth maybe?) that the main concern is tied
> to the primary resources of a publication.
>
> I think these primary resources will also be updated and change over time,
> here are a few different examples:
>
>    - it's fairly common for technical books to be updated over time (some
>    publishers have beta books, but with platforms like Gitbook you can expect
>    even more regular updates)
>    - serialized fiction (comics, manga but also general fiction) could be
>    distributed as a WP per fragment/chapter, but it might be easier for the
>    reader to simply point them to a WP that will be updated over time with
>    more content
>    - Librivox audiobook releases are produced by a community over time,
>    it would make perfect sense to have a WP for the complete publication, with
>    new updates as the community releases new audio files
>    - Jiminy Panoz provided a use case in the Github issue about remixing
>    <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwpub%2Fissues%2F8%23issuecomment-317539201&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7C7091842f843b485c0f4508d4d3925621%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636366072842086747&sdata=4zRCcwP7BWV8AVZNZAgy7mxrNbdtAaORTW76ZBOosOg%3D&reserved=0> that
>    is also relevant here, since a publisher could dynamically provide specific
>    part of a publication (author bio, highlighted titles, titles from the same
>    author etc.)
>
> These are all examples where the ability to update a WP really shines and
> adds value compared to EPUB.
>
> Hadrien
>
> 2017-07-25 19:45 GMT+02:00 Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>:
>
> There seems to have been a good discussion on this at the meeting that I
> missed ☹.   And I didn’t see a specific resolution to the topic, so I
> figured I’d pull it out here for further review.
>
> In my view, Garth said it best (copied from the minutes):
> <*garth*> Publishing: defining the parts that won’t change over time.
>
> This means that a WP can contain resources that are a mix of “static”
> (unchanging) content and “dynamic” (changing) content.  I have two favorite
> examples (aka real world use cases) of this:
>
>    1. A textbook where the quizzes can be changed by the professor for
>    their specific class
>    2. A data dashboard that is able to display the current data
>
>
> Does anyone believe differently about a WP and its ability to contain
> “dynamic” content?
>
> Leonard
> P.S. I am specifically **NOT** talking about PWP here – just WP.
>
>
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Received on Tuesday, 25 July 2017 21:19:29 UTC

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