Re: examples with blank nodes in prov-o html document

Hi Tim,

This would be your way of tackling the problem, but it's not a way that 
any PROV document
has specified. That's why, from my point of view, this solution is not 
interoperable.

It is valid PROV-O, I agree, but without equivalent in the data model, 
since in this
example, the derivation refers to a usage, and PROV mandates the 
presence of an identifier.

Luc


On 12/02/13 18:08, Timothy Lebo wrote:
>
> On Feb 12, 2013, at 12:07 PM, Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk 
> <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Tim,
>>
>> I don't know of a way to translate this rdf in an interoperable way
>
>
> (As I've said) I do; you mint an identifier.
>
>
>> since we have not specified this in our specs.
>>
>> It's for that reason I thought this example should be changed.
>
> (are we still talking about 
> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/5495d990f17b/testcases/provo/prov-o-property-hadUsage-PASS.ttl ?)
>
> But, it's valid PROV-O. Why should it be changed?
> There's nothing special about the blank node other than it doesn't 
> have a URI.
> It's still a legitimate resource. And any URI that you choose to 
> identify that resource will do.
>
> Are you still suggesting that this example change?
>
> -Tim
>
>
>>
>> Luc
>>
>> On 02/12/2013 03:26 PM, Timothy Lebo wrote:
>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 10:09 AM, Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk 
>>> <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If we do, and convert back to rdf, we don't have an equivalent rdf 
>>>> representation.
>>> Yes, you would :-)
>>>
>>> -Tim
>>>
>>>
>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>> Electronics and Computer Science
>>>> University of Southampton
>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>>>> United Kingdom
>>>>
>>>> On 12 Feb 2013, at 15:00, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu 
>>>> <mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:57 AM, Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk 
>>>>> <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dm/XML/prov-n require an explicit identifier which we don't have 
>>>>>> in this example.
>>>>> Why not make one up?
>>>>>
>>>>> -TIm
>>>>>
>>>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science
>>>>>> University of Southampton
>>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>>>>>> United Kingdom
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12 Feb 2013, at 14:54, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu 
>>>>>> <mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Luc,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 9:25 AM, Luc Moreau 
>>>>>>> <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The prov-o document has several examples with blank nodes.
>>>>>>>>>> Some of them are difficult
>>>>>>>>>> to express in prov-n/prov-xml.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Consider:
>>>>>>>>>> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/5495d990f17b/testcases/provo/prov-o-property-hadUsage-PASS.ttl
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The usage has no identifier we can use in the derivation.
>>>>>>>>> Any identifier will do; you may choose a new one for each 
>>>>>>>>> bnode you find.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Should we keep examples of this kind in the specification or 
>>>>>>>>>> should we introduce an explicit
>>>>>>>>>> identifier for usage here?
>>>>>>>>> We are using blank nodes to help the reader focus on the 
>>>>>>>>> structure of the PROV-O pattern.
>>>>>>>>> I think this is appropriate for the audience of PROV-O.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it's just a matter of knowing how to handle bnodes 
>>>>>>>>> when mapping to other serializations?
>>>>>>>> We don't specify that. So, we don't  how express that example 
>>>>>>>> in prov-xml/prov-n.
>>>>>>> In XML, it'd be an element with no @id attribute (since, that's 
>>>>>>> exactly what a blank node is).
>>>>>>> I haven't written any translators to XML or N, so I guess I 
>>>>>>> don't understand the problem clearly enough.
>>>>>>> What is difficult about "filling something in" if it's not there?
>>>>>>> This is exactly the correct interpretation of a bnode.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Professor Luc Moreau
>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk 
>> <mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
>> United Kingdom http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm 
>> <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/%7Elavm>
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm