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RE: FAQ entry on influence/inform (ISSUE-592)

From: Miles, Simon <simon.miles@kcl.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:08:55 +0000
To: "public-prov-wg@w3.org" <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <AA3FA22D967B5C4E8948AADF719DA7C410908D7C@AM2PRD0311MB409.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Hello

As there have been no objections to this FAQ entry, other than Khalid's which has been addressed, I will close this issue.

thanks,
Simon

Dr Simon Miles
Senior Lecturer, Department of Informatics
Kings College London, WC2R 2LS, UK
+44 (0)20 7848 1166

Modelling the Provenance of Data in Autonomous Systems:
http://eprints.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/1264/

________________________________________
From: kbelhajj@googlemail.com [kbelhajj@googlemail.com] on behalf of Khalid Belhajjame [Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk]
Sent: 01 April 2013 14:32
To: Miles, Simon
Cc: public-prov-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: FAQ entry on influence/inform (ISSUE-592)

Thanks Simon,

khalid

On 1 April 2013 14:13, Miles, Simon <simon.miles@kcl.ac.uk> wrote:
> Hi Khalid,
>
> OK, I wasn't in Santa Barbara, and I take your point (2). I have softened the final sentence of the FAQ entry to:
>
> "For example, if you wish to express the influence of one entity on another, consider using a wasDerivedFrom relation."
>
> thanks,
> Simon
>
> Dr Simon Miles
> Senior Lecturer, Department of Informatics
> Kings College London, WC2R 2LS, UK
> +44 (0)20 7848 1166
>
> Evolutionary Testing of Autonomous Software Agents:
> http://eprints.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/1370/
>
> ________________________________________
> From: kbelhajj@googlemail.com [kbelhajj@googlemail.com] on behalf of Khalid Belhajjame [Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk]
> Sent: 01 April 2013 13:57
> To: Miles, Simon
> Cc: public-prov-wg@w3.org
> Subject: Re: FAQ entry on influence/inform (ISSUE-592)
>
> Hi Simon,
>
> There are two points:
>
> 1) Effectively, the definition that you mentioned of influence
> effectively does not cover the example I have given. I have also
> looked at the constraints document to see if influence is transitive,
> and that does not seem to be the case. (I am saying this, because if
> influence was transitive, then my example would have been valid). I
> will need to enquiry on this point a bit more, since I remember in the
> face to face meeting in Santa Barbara, we started talking about
> influence as alternative that can be used in cases where there is not
> sufficient information to use derivation.
>
> 2) Regardless of the example I have given, if we go back to the entry,
> it suggests that derivation can be inferred from influence, when the
> elements involved are entities. I looked quickly through the
> constraint document, and that inference is not there either, or is it?
> Should it be there?
>
> Thanks, khalid
>
> On 1 April 2013 13:16, Miles, Simon <simon.miles@kcl.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Hi Khalid,
>>
>> OK, but in your example, there appears to be no relation at all between e3 and e2, so how can we say e3 was influenced by e2?
>>
>> The DM says "Influence is the capacity of an entity, activity, or agent to have an effect on the character, development, or behavior of another by means of usage, start, end, generation, invalidation, communication, derivation, attribution, association, or delegation."  I don't see how e3 has any "effect on the character, development or behavior" of e2 by means of any of the relations listed?
>>
>> We used to have a relation, tracedTo, that (if I remember correctly) could describe the relation between e3 and e2 in your example. The relation would express that there is no influence of e2 on e3, but that they were both involved in the same activity. As far as I know, tracedTo was removed from the DM.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Simon
>>
>> Dr Simon Miles
>> Senior Lecturer, Department of Informatics
>> Kings College London, WC2R 2LS, UK
>> +44 (0)20 7848 1166
>>
>> Evolutionary Testing of Autonomous Software Agents:
>> http://eprints.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/1370/
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: kbelhajj@googlemail.com [kbelhajj@googlemail.com] on behalf of Khalid Belhajjame [Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk]
>> Sent: 01 April 2013 12:21
>> To: Miles, Simon
>> Cc: public-prov-wg@w3.org
>> Subject: Re: FAQ entry on influence/inform (ISSUE-592)
>>
>> Hi Simon,
>>
>> On 1 April 2013 11:52, Miles, Simon <simon.miles@kcl.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> Hi Khalid,
>>>
>>>> This is not always possible in the sense that en entity e2 can be
>>>> influenced by an entity e1, yet e2 may not be derived from e1.
>>>
>>> OK, so my question from before was: can you give an example of such an e2 and e1?
>>
>>
>> Consider an activity a that uses two entities e1 and e2 and generates
>> copies of the two entities e3 and e4, respectively. e3 was influenced
>> by both e1 and e2, and so was e4. However, e3 was not derived from e2,
>> and e4 was not derived from e1.
>>
>>
>> best,
>> khalid
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> Simon
>>>
>>> Dr Simon Miles
>>> Senior Lecturer, Department of Informatics
>>> Kings College London, WC2R 2LS, UK
>>> +44 (0)20 7848 1166
>>>
>>> Evolutionary Testing of Autonomous Software Agents:
>>> http://eprints.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/1370/
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: kbelhajj@googlemail.com [kbelhajj@googlemail.com] on behalf of Khalid Belhajjame [Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk]
>>> Sent: 01 April 2013 11:38
>>> To: Miles, Simon
>>> Cc: public-prov-wg@w3.org
>>> Subject: Re: FAQ entry on influence/inform (ISSUE-592)
>>>
>>> Hi again :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> So in the last sentence of your entry, you say:
>>>
>>> "If you find yourself using wasInfluencedBy in your provenance model,
>>> it is preferable to check what kinds of element (entities, activities,
>>> or agents) you are trying to relate and considering using the more
>>> specific relation. For example, if you wish to express the influence
>>> of one entity on another, this can be done with a wasDerivedFrom
>>> relation."
>>>
>>> If you look at the last sentence in the above paragraph, from my
>>> understanding, it suggets the following:
>>>
>>> If one wants to express influence between 2 elements and those
>>> elements happen to be entities, then use derivation instead of
>>> influence.
>>>
>>> This is not always possible in the sense that en entity e2 can be
>>> influenced by an entity e1, yet e2 may not be derived from e1.
>>>
>>> Was this helpful?
>>>
>>> khalid
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1 April 2013 11:20, Miles, Simon <simon.miles@kcl.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>> Hi Khalid,
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, but I'm still not understanding what you mean.
>>>>
>>>>> may suggest for the reader that derivation is used to express influence between entities.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that is what I want to suggest. As the DM says "A... derivation... is also an influence."
>>>>
>>>>> While derivation entails
>>>>> influence, it is also used to express entity transformations that are
>>>>> captured by influence.
>>>>
>>>> But transformation is only one form of derivation by its definition in the DM. Saying that X wasDerivedFrom Y does not entail that X was transformed from Y, as it may merely be "based on" Y (by the definition).
>>>>
>>>> I think I'm still not understanding your point. Can you say what sentence you could give as replacement for the one you dislike? I understand you may be asking just to remove my sentence, but that would not help clarify the reasons to me.
>>>>
>>>> thanks,
>>>> Simon
>>>>
>>>> Dr Simon Miles
>>>> Senior Lecturer, Department of Informatics
>>>> Kings College London, WC2R 2LS, UK
>>>> +44 (0)20 7848 1166
>>>>
>>>> Evolutionary Testing of Autonomous Software Agents:
>>>> http://eprints.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/1370/
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: kbelhajj@googlemail.com [kbelhajj@googlemail.com] on behalf of Khalid Belhajjame [Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk]
>>>> Sent: 01 April 2013 11:09
>>>> To: Miles, Simon
>>>> Cc: public-prov-wg@w3.org
>>>> Subject: Re: FAQ entry on influence/inform (ISSUE-592)
>>>>
>>>> Hi Simon,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1 April 2013 11:00, Miles, Simon <simon.miles@kcl.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Khalid,
>>>>>
>>>>> OK. That is not how I have understood things from the DM.
>>>>>
>>>>> The DM says "A Usage, start, end, generation, invalidation, communication, derivation, attribution, association, and delegation is also an influence. It is recommended to adopt these more specific relations when writing provenance descriptions. It is anticipated that the Influence relation may be useful to express queries over provenance information."  If you are correct that influence could be used to express provenance relationships between entities that derivation could not capture, then why would we be recommending not to use it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you give me an example of a relationship between entities that is an >influence but not a derivation?
>>>>
>>>> That was not what I said. What I said (or at least meant) is that the
>>>> wording of the last sentence in your entry may suggest for the reader
>>>> that derivation is used
>>>> to express influence between entities. While derivation entails
>>>> influence, it is also used to express entity transformations that are
>>>> captured by influence.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> khalid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks,
>>>>> Simon
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr Simon Miles
>>>>> Senior Lecturer, Department of Informatics
>>>>> Kings College London, WC2R 2LS, UK
>>>>> +44 (0)20 7848 1166
>>>>>
>>>>> Evolutionary Testing of Autonomous Software Agents:
>>>>> http://eprints.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/1370/
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: kbelhajj@googlemail.com [kbelhajj@googlemail.com] on behalf of Khalid Belhajjame [Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk]
>>>>> Sent: 29 March 2013 18:25
>>>>> To: Miles, Simon
>>>>> Cc: public-prov-wg@w3.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: FAQ entry on influence/inform (ISSUE-592)
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Simon,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the new entry, which I think will be useful.
>>>>> Regarding the last sentence, I think it may lead to some
>>>>> mis-understanding [1], as the reader may think that derivation is used
>>>>> to express influence between entities, whereas it is used to express a
>>>>> relation that is stronger than influence.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] "For example, if you wish to express the influence of one entity
>>>>> on another, this can be done with a wasDerivedFrom relation."
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> khalid
>>>>>
>>>>> On 27 March 2013 19:32, Miles, Simon <simon.miles@kcl.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've made a stab at a FAQ entry for whether to use wasInluencedBy,
>>>>>> wasInformedBy or another relation, relating to an old open issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/PROV-FAQ#Should_I_use_wasInfluencedBy.2C_wasInformedBy.2C_or_another_relation.3F
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any feedback is welcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks,
>>>>>> Simon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dr Simon Miles
>>>>>> Senior Lecturer, Department of Informatics
>>>>>> Kings College London, WC2R 2LS, UK
>>>>>> +44 (0)20 7848 1166
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Evolutionary Testing of Autonomous Software Agents:
>>>>>> http://eprints.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/1370/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


Received on Friday, 5 April 2013 15:09:41 UTC

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