- From: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
- Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 04:46:05 +0000
- To: Timothy Lebo <lebot@rpi.edu>
- CC: "public-prov-wg@w3.org" <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <EMEW3|c50c5caf94ac4ad4e0eb83ddddb9f1dao555k908L.Moreau|ecs.soton.ac.uk|6D574130>
On 5 Jun 2012, at 23:01, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu<mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2012, at 5:55 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
Sure, but we said we would just define a collection type for extensibility, and nothing else.
Yes. But with no way to put something into it?
"Thanks for the canoe, W3C… can I have a paddle?"
Then, we should drop the type Collection entirely.
membership of entities is not clear, since we don't have
a predicate to decide whether two entities are equal.
Furthermore, why not insertion and removal relations?
Luc
All the rest would be dictionary specific.
Yes, all of the meat would be Dictionary specific.
Insertion and Removal and Membership are Dictionary specific.
That's fine.
I'm having all of that reuse the Collection's hadMember.
(new OWL is up, I'm putting the HTML up now).
-Tim
Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science
University of Southampton
Southampton SO17 1BJ
United Kingdom
On 5 Jun 2012, at 22:39, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu<mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2012, at 5:34 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
The only membership defined in dm is:
Membership<http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#concept-membership> memberOf(c, {(key_1, e_1), ..., (key_n, e_n)})<http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#dfn-memberof>
Why should we define membership on collections?
Because we defined Collection?
"A collection is an entity that provides a structure to some constituents, which are themselves entities. These constituents are said to be member of the collections. "
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-dm.html#term-collection
-Tim
Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science
University of Southampton
Southampton SO17 1BJ
United Kingdom
On 5 Jun 2012, at 22:29, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu<mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
Dictionary keys can be compared. Hence, after insertion and removal, we can always determine a new dictionary state if we knew the state before operation.
okay. But why should that prevent someone from asserting that an Entity is a member of a Collection?
I feel like your "we can't assume reasoning/inference; it's a data model" argument applies here (this time, against your position).
-Tim
Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science
University of Southampton
Southampton SO17 1BJ
United Kingdom
On 5 Jun 2012, at 22:11, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu<mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote:
On Jun 5, 2012, at 5:05 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
Hi Tim,
Thanks for your example.
The following is not valid according to prov-dm:
prov:hadMember # These would be asserted on a simple (first step)
36<http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l36> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/John_Glover_Roberts,_Jr.><http://dbpedia.org/resource/John_Glover_Roberts,_Jr.>, # prov:Collection.
37<http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l37> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Antonin_Scalia><http://dbpedia.org/resource/Antonin_Scalia>, #
38<http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l38> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Anthony_Kennedy><http://dbpedia.org/resource/Anthony_Kennedy>, #
39<http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l39> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Clarence_Thomas><http://dbpedia.org/resource/Clarence_Thomas>, #
40<http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l40> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Ruth_Bader_Ginsburg><http://dbpedia.org/resource/Ruth_Bader_Ginsburg>, #
41<http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l41> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Stephen_Breyer><http://dbpedia.org/resource/Stephen_Breyer>, #
42<http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l42> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Samuel_Alito><http://dbpedia.org/resource/Samuel_Alito>, #
43<http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l43> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Sonia_Sotomayor><http://dbpedia.org/resource/Sonia_Sotomayor>, #
44<http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l44> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Elena_Kagan><http://dbpedia.org/resource/Elena_Kagan>;
The key reason why we went for a dictionary and, say, a set of entities,
is that we are unable to decide whether an entity belongs to a set on the basis of
its urls (since the same entity may be denoted by multiple urls).
huh? Why does that matter? In that case, we wouldn't be able to do it for Dictionaries, either.
-Tim
Luc
On 05/06/2012 06:25, Timothy Lebo wrote:
prov-wg,
I tried my hand at modeling the provenance of the U.S. Supreme Court's current membership, and its derivation to it's first membership.
The wiki page for the example is at:
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership
In an attempt to take a fresh look at how we're modeling dictionaries (and collections?), I didn't reference PROV-DM, PROV-O, or any other examples or documentation -- I just tried to describe the subject matter.
How does it look?
I'd like to move PROV-O (and DM, if it needs tweaking) towards this kind of modeling and naming.
Discussion and feedback encouraged.
Later today, I'll try to start from scratch on the DM and work through the current PROV-O modeling, and then the recent threads on this topic.
I hope by then we can converge on a satisfactory design.
Regards,
Tim
Received on Wednesday, 6 June 2012 04:46:40 UTC