RE: PROV-ISSUE-29 (mutual-iVP-of): can two bobs be mutually "IVP of" each other [Conceptual Model]

+1 - I think the common meaning is at odds with what we want (though it is certainly more pronounceable than ivpOf)
Jim


From: Jim McCusker [mailto:mccusj@rpi.edu]
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 3:13 PM
To: Myers, Jim
Cc: Cresswell, Stephen; Paolo Missier; public-prov-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: PROV-ISSUE-29 (mutual-iVP-of): can two bobs be mutually "IVP of" each other [Conceptual Model]

While we're on this, mathematical complement is an inherently symmetric property. I think we need to continue investigating better names (I can make new issue for that, if that's appropriate).

Jim
On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Myers, Jim <MYERSJ4@rpi.edu<mailto:MYERSJ4@rpi.edu>> wrote:
When I read the current document, I see complementOF is defined as one-way - you can assert it in both directions, but the text talks about a case where B is a complementOf A but not the reverse. Can the editors confirm that's the intent? If so, perhaps we can move to refining text to avoid the perception that symmetry is required (i.e. talk about the asymmetric case first...). I'm not sure what of 29 and 57 then survive as unresolved concerns - perhaps whether transitivity can be defined?

Cheers,
 Jim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-prov-wg-request@w3.org<mailto:public-prov-wg-request@w3.org> [mailto:public-prov-wg-<mailto:public-prov-wg->
> request@w3.org<mailto:request@w3.org>] On Behalf Of Cresswell, Stephen
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 10:15 AM
> To: Paolo Missier; public-prov-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-prov-wg@w3.org>
> Subject: RE: PROV-ISSUE-29 (mutual-iVP-of): can two bobs be mutually "IVP
> of" each other [Conceptual Model]
>
>
> Hi Paolo,
>
> Yes, I agree that the current wasComplementOf can be symmetrical, and I
> have no objection to closing issue 29.
>
> I do still think that a concept of IVPof that is antisymmetric and transitive, so
> that "B IVPof A" means something like "B and A describe the same stuff,
> and B's interval is within A's interval" is a simpler and stronger concept.  It
> can co-exist with wasComplementOf, and it can be used to define (a
> symmetric form of) wasComplementOf (which admittedly doesn't match
> the current definition).
> i.e.
>   (B wasComplementOf A) <=> exists C.(C IVPof A & C IVPof B)
>
> Since wasComplementOf is a relation that only holds over the temporal
> intersection A and B anyway, then saying it with this IVPof at least makes
> you introduce an entity C that models the relevant interval.
>
> However, I think that's basically what Graham said and it is a different issue
> - PROV-ISSUE-57.
>
> Stephen Cresswell
>
> Tel:  +44 (0) 01603 69 6926
>
> Web:  www.tso.co.uk<http://www.tso.co.uk>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-prov-wg-request@w3.org<mailto:public-prov-wg-request@w3.org>
> [mailto:public-prov-wg-request@w3.org<mailto:public-prov-wg-request@w3.org>] On Behalf Of Paolo Missier
> Sent: 23 September 2011 12:06
> To: public-prov-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-prov-wg@w3.org>
> Subject: Re: PROV-ISSUE-29 (mutual-iVP-of): can two bobs be mutually "IVP
> of" each other [Conceptual Model]
>
> Hi,
>
> as we are going through older issues, this one seems to have been
> superseded by the current version of the model. We propose to close it
> pending review (that means, Stephen can you please call in with your
> current view on this, thank you).
>
> Specifically:  IVP-of has been replaced by ComplementOf, which *does*
> allow for symmetry.
>
> -Paolo
>
>
> On 7/11/11 12:22 PM, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker wrote:
> > PROV-ISSUE-29 (mutual-iVP-of): can two bobs be mutually "IVP of" each
> other  [Conceptual Model]
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/29
> >
> > Raised by: Stephen Cresswell
> > On product: Conceptual Model
> >
> >
> > As it currently stands, I believe that it does not exclude the
> possibility that two bobs may be mutually "IVP of" each other -
> > i.e. you could have bobs A, B such that (B IVPof A)&  (A IVPof B), and
> this is surely not intended.
> >
> > This could arise if, for bobs A, B :
> > - A and B both represent the same entity
> > - A and B share some immutable properties, and they have corresponding
> values.
> > - B has some immutable properties which correspond to mutable
> properties of A
> > - A has some immutable properties which correspond to mutable
> properties of B
> >
> > Possibly the asserter-defined test (included in "IPV of" definition)
> that real world states modelled by A and B are "consistent" may disallow
> > "IPV of" in this situation.  However, unless that is guaranteed, I
> think that the definition of "B IPV of A" (if it is still to have a
> definition) should additionally require that:
> > "A has no immutable properties which correspond to mutable properties
> of B"
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> -----------  ~oo~  --------------
> Paolo Missier - Paolo.Missier@newcastle.ac.uk<mailto:Paolo.Missier@newcastle.ac.uk>, pmissier@acm.org<mailto:pmissier@acm.org> School
> of Computing Science, Newcastle University,  UK
> http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/Paolo.Missier
>
>
>
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--
Jim McCusker
Programmer Analyst
Krauthammer Lab, Pathology Informatics
Yale School of Medicine
james.mccusker@yale.edu<mailto:james.mccusker@yale.edu> | (203) 785-6330
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