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Re: PROV-ISSUE-149 (revision-asserter): Why does revision record include an asserter? [Data Model]

From: Simon Miles <simon.miles@kcl.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:15:21 +0000
Message-ID: <CAKc1nHcamq=gXsTLcQH6+t62wvnVxA2my3oaJCtqkJTrA9o5Ug@mail.gmail.com>
To: Provenance Working Group WG <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
Hi Luc,

OK, but the text says the agent has "responsibility for declaring that
the former is variant of the latter", and I'm not clear if that's the
same as the "creating/deciding" you refer to in your mail.

I understand that the agent is responsible for some process, but which
process are we not making explicit? There may be multiple processes,
controlled by different agents, to get from one revision of a document
to another. So is this just for asserting the cases where there is a
final step (process) in which one agent "creates" the new revision
entity by "signing off" the changes since the previous revision?

If this is the case, I get the intent and my issue can be closed, but
I don't think the text is clear enough. It would be good to describe
the situation above, to know that it is here that the concept applies,
and pinpoint the "declaring agent" within it.

Thanks,
Simon

On 11 November 2011 12:56, Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:
> Hi Simon,
> it's very much in line with the notion of responsibility in Yolanda's
> email yesterday.
> We are talking about the agent who is responsible for creating/deciding
> a new revision.
> But here, because it's a convenience relation, we don't make the process
> explicit.
> So, the agent responsible for the new revision doesn't have to be the
> asserter at all.
> Luc
>
> On 11/11/2011 12:28 PM, Simon Miles wrote:
>> Hi Luc,
>>
>> OK, but even if we distinguish "the agent who decides that a fact is
>> true" from "the agent who asserts that fact", then I don't see why
>> Revision is any different from any other assertion.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Simon
>>
>> On 11 November 2011 12:22, Luc Moreau<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Simon,
>>> It's not the case that the responsible agent is the one making the
>>> assertion.
>>> Luc
>>>
>>> On 11/11/2011 12:01 PM, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker wrote:
>>>
>>>> PROV-ISSUE-149 (revision-asserter): Why does revision record include an asserter? [Data Model]
>>>>
>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/149
>>>>
>>>> Raised by: Simon Miles
>>>> On product: Data Model
>>>>
>>>> The Revision record contains its own asserter, but it is unclear why.
>>>>
>>>> "Deciding whether something is made available as a revision of something else usually involves an agent who represents someone in the world who takes responsibility for declaring that the former is variant of the latter...
>>>>
>>>> A revision record...
>>>> may refer to a responsible agent with identifier ag."
>>>>
>>>> The agent appears to be just the entity deciding whether to make the assertion or not (whether one entity is a revision of another). This is no different from any other assertion: it is always in some asserter's perspective that the assertion is true. We don't include the asserter explicitly in Used, Generated, Derived or other records, so why do we for Revision?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>>> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Professor Luc Moreau
> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>
>
>



-- 
Dr Simon Miles
Lecturer, Department of Informatics
Kings College London, WC2R 2LS, UK
+44 (0)20 7848 1166
Received on Friday, 11 November 2011 13:15:50 UTC

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