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Draft minutes: 7 January 2014 call

From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 13:01:10 -0500
Message-ID: <52CC40E6.5020404@nokia.com>
To: "public-pointer-events@w3.org" <public-pointer-events@w3.org>
The draft minutes from the January 7 voice conference are available at 
the following and copied below:

   <http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html>

WG Members - if you have any comments, corrections, etc., please send 
them to the public-pointer-events mail list before January 13. In the 
absence of any changes, these minutes will be considered approved.

-Thanks, ArtB

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    Pointer Events WG Voice Conference

07 Jan 2014

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0001.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Art_Barstow, Doug_Schepers, Cathy_Chan, Rick_Byers,
           Jacob_Rossi, Olli_Pettay, Asir_Vedamuthu, Scott_Gonzalez

    Regrets
    Chair
           Art

    Scribe
           Art

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Tweak agenda
          2. [6]Bug 21749 Setting a capture on an offshore element
             AB: Jacob filed 21749 on 19-Apr-2013;
             <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21749>
          3. [7]Bug 21951 - [CR] pointermove dispatching when
             button state changes;
          4. [8]Add non-normative example section to mouse
             compatibility event mapping? Raised by Rick and
             Patrick Lauke on 10-Dec-2013
          5. [9]"List of Pointer Events" table default actions;
             raised by Patrick Lauke on 10-Dec-2013;
          6. [10]Sub-pixel coordinate granularity; filed by Rick on
             17-Dec-2013;
          7. [11]Testing
          8. [12]Status of PR324 (touch-action tests)
          9. [13]implementation status
      * [14]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB

    <scribe> Scribe: Art

    <jrossi2> * realized I don't have a mic .. brb

Tweak agenda

    AB: Happy New Year everyone!
    ... I posted a draft agenda a few days ago
    [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/0001.html.
    ... without Sangwhan present, perhaps we should postpone the
    "Compatibility Events" topic.
    ... any objections to that?

      [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0001.html.

    [ None ]

    AB: any other change requests?

    [ None ]

    AB: anyone want to Scribe today's call?

    RB: I'll do it

    Scribe+ Rick

    <scribe> ScribeNick: rbyers

Bug 21749 Setting a capture on an offshore element AB: Jacob filed
21749 on 19-Apr-2013;
<[16]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21749>

      [16] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21749%3E

    AB: Originally based on input from Francois Remy

    <ArtB>
    [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013AprJun/0084.html -> Francois Remy

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013AprJun/0084.html

    JR: Mail is longer than what I pasted into the bug
    ... It's possible this is an IE bug
    ... This is a good test case nonetheless - scenario requires
    some discussion
    ... Scenario: element not in the DOM - can you setCapture to
    that, let alone receive pointer events
    ... generally we avoid firing input events to elements that
    aren't in the DOM
    ... if you create an element (without putting it in the DOM)
    and call setPointerCapture, what should happen?
    ... Normally you'd only use setCapture on an element in the
    tree
    ... IE throws an exception but that's not written in the spec
    ... either could see fixing IE to make it not throw
    ... or update the spec to make it throw
    ... but open to discussion

    RB: There's no scenario where an element not in the tree would
    receive a real input event, right?

    JR: Right. Closest is an input sync - but could just be in the
    tree

    AB: If there are no other comments, Jacob should propose spec
    change to the list

    OP: Agree we should throw some exception. And for consistency
    if capture is on some element and then element is removed from
    the document, we should also release capture.

    JR: Good point, we should capture that as well

    DS: Trying to think of scenarios

    SG: Scenarios where an element is removed and re-added
    elsewhere
    ... as far as the user is concerned it's just moving, not being
    removed
    ... not sure it needs to receive events while not in the tree,
    but should after it's re-inserted

    RB: What does IE do when an element that has capture is removed
    from the DOM

    JR: Just checking - believe it's released and get lostcapture
    event - good edge case we need to document

    DS: Need to ensure event is rebased onto the right element

    JR: Happens naturally as a result of hit-testing

    RB: IE's behavior makes sense to me and ti seems quite
    edge-case since capture is always explicit (unlike touch
    events).
    ... Assuming IE hasn't got complaints, I think we should just
    spec what IE does here.

    DS: Are there developers using pointer events extensively
    today?

    JR: Yes - tons. Google maps, Bing maps, flipboard, all windows
    8 apps, etc.
    ... we get lots of feedback from developers

    DS: What I meant is is there someone we know using pointer
    events we could ask for their input?

    RB: Did Francois express an opinion on whether IE's behavior
    was reasonable?

    JR: Sounds like he's leaning towards IE behavior

    DS: What about shadow DOM? Is that considered in the dom?

    JR: Yes - just a different mechanism for how events propagate
    ... Test in IE shows that an element that has capture that is
    removed and re-added still receives events.

    <ArtB> ACTION: Jacob propose text to address bug 21749; confirm
    change with Francois Remy [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-57 - Propose text to address bug
    21749; confirm change with francois remy [on Jacob Rossi - due
    2014-01-14].

    RB: How about Jacob confirms IE's behavior here (eg. what
    happens to the events while the capture element is out of the
    DOM)

Bug 21951 - [CR] pointermove dispatching when button state changes;

    <ArtB>
    [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013AprJun/0134.html -> comment from Scott

      [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013AprJun/0134.html

    <ArtB>
    [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013AprJun/0141.html -> Jacob's reply to Scott

      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013AprJun/0141.html

    JR: Not clear in the spec that pointermove doesn't have to fire
    if the button change is captured by another event.
    ... Eg. putting the pointer down doesn't need to ALSO fire a
    pointermove.

    SG: Right

    <jrossi2>
    [21]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21951

      [21] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21951

    JR: Looks like we already agreed to add a sentence

    <ArtB> ACTION: Jacob propose text to address bug 21951
    [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-58 - Propose text to address bug
    21951 [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-01-14].

    RESOLUTION: Clarify pointermove does not fire for button change
    described by other events

Add non-normative example section to mouse compatibility event
mapping? Raised by Rick and Patrick Lauke on 10-Dec-2013

    [23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013OctDec/0067.html

      [23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013OctDec/0067.html

    <ArtB>
    [24]http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/CR-pointerevents-20130509/#compat
    ibility-mapping-with-mouse-events -> Mouse Interop

      [24] http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/CR-pointerevents-20130509/#compatibility-mapping-with-mouse-events

    Details:
    [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013OctDec/0068.html

      [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013OctDec/0068.html

    JR: Yes, adding an example and some clarifying text sounds like
    it would address his concerns.
    ... would be relatively straight forward but helpful
    ... all included in the algorithm, but requires the reader to
    trace the algorithm
    ... would be helpful to have such examples

    <ArtB> ACTION: Jacob propose text re "Add non-normative example
    section to mouse compat event mapping"; get confirmation from
    Patrick [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-59 - Propose text re "add
    non-normative example section to mouse compat event mapping";
    get confirmation from patrick [on Jacob Rossi - due
    2014-01-14].

    DS: Agree - suggest Jacob proposes some text for this

"List of Pointer Events" table default actions; raised by Patrick
Lauke on 10-Dec-2013;

    [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013OctDec/0069.html

      [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013OctDec/0069.html

    DS: Currently no replies on the list

    JR: Yes I discussed this with him over Twitter
    ... confusion over word 'dispatch' isn't really the issue here
    ... The table reads as only pointerdown dispatches
    compatibility mouse events
    ... Not sure what the right wording is here

    DS: Take discussion to the list or any other thoughts?

    <ArtB> ACTION: Jacob reply to Patrick's "List of Pointer
    Events" ... thread [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-60 - Reply to patrick's "list of
    pointer events" ... thread [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-01-14].

    <ArtB> ACTION: Rick reply to Patrick's "List of Pointer Events"
    ... thread [recorded in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-61 - Reply to patrick's "list of
    pointer events" ... thread [on Rick Byers - due 2014-01-14].

    DS: Will get Rick and Jacob to reply to patrick

Sub-pixel coordinate granularity; filed by Rick on 17-Dec-2013;

    [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013OctDec/0074.html

      [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013OctDec/0074.html

    RB: CSS px unit as an integer is increasingly lossly - eg.
    scrolling by CSS px on mobile devices is quite jumpy
    ... 1 CSS px is typically 2 or 3 hardware pixels on mobile
    devices

    JR: Agree that any issues should be taken to CSS OM spec
    ... believe we already do this when user zoom is applied
    ... think we hit some website compatibility issues preventing
    doing this in all cases

    AB: Any other feedback? Important topic but doesn't directly
    affect pointer event spec

    JR: Yes I think the pointer event spec - doesn't assume
    co-ordinates are integers
    ... just a messy inter-spec dependency
    ... we link to DOM3 events spec, but that may not document
    relationship with CSS OM.

    RB: Any harm in us having some text that refers to CSS OM?

    JR: It's been a slow-moving spec - don't want to take a hard
    dependency on it

    AB: If the text was non-normative it would be OK

    JR: Yes, there's a normative reference to DOM3 mouse events, we
    could add a non-normative note that CSSOM extends it.

    DS: Seems fine to me
    ... We could always change later - functionally the
    dependencies don't really matter in my opinion
    ... we should do most pragmatic thing for now
    ... can always change last minute

    AB: So Jacob and Rick should propose text to address issue

    RB: I think what Jacob just proposed is perfect

    AB: Sounds find, any objections?

    RESOLUTION: Add non-normative note that CSSOM extends mouse
    events

    <ArtB> ACTION: jacob add a non-normative note that CSSOM
    extends mouse events [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion06]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Add a non-normative note that
    cssom extends mouse events [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-01-14].

Testing

Status of PR324 (touch-action tests)

    AB: There were actions for Cathy and Rick to review

    RB: I added comments back in Nov, but failed to send my summary
    notes to the list (found it tedious due to all the copy/past)
    ... sent those comments to the list this morning

    CC: Agree with Rick. I reviewed them as well.
    ... but was very tedious

    AB: Do we consider PR closed then?

    JR: We've seen the feedback but haven't updated the test cases
    yet
    ... we should continue to iterate, and accept once everyone is
    happy

    OP: Yes that makes it more clean

    AB: So we'll get a notification from MS when comments are
    addressed

    RB: I think someone (Scott) said they'd merge the tests

    JR: We have a submissions branch - we'd want to accept the PR
    first, then let Scott do the refactoring

    AB: Makes sense to me

    RB: Yep, that's fine

    JR: Otherwise we'll get into conflicts

    SG: Makes sense to me

    JR: Rick, can you help contributing your scenarios?
    ... lots of discussion about the architecture of the tests

    <scott_gonzalez> I need to join another call.

    Here's an exmaple of one of my blink tests:
    [32]http://www.rbyers.net/touch-action-pan.html

      [32] http://www.rbyers.net/touch-action-pan.html

    Also if it's helpful, here are some others:

    [33]http://www.rbyers.net/touch-action-overflow.html

      [33] http://www.rbyers.net/touch-action-overflow.html

    [34]http://www.rbyers.net/touch-action-shadow-dom.html

      [34] http://www.rbyers.net/touch-action-shadow-dom.html

    [35]http://www.rbyers.net/touch-action-simple.html

      [35] http://www.rbyers.net/touch-action-simple.html

implementation status

    AS: We're making progress on firefox, no specific update to
    report

    <smaug> grr

    <smaug> skype

    <smaug> rbyers: do you implement also your proposed
    touch-action-delay property?

    <smaug> and Zakim doesn't let me to re-call

    RB: We've decided in chrome to ship touch-action support ahead
    of my proposed touch-action-delay.
    ... touch-action support is tracked here:
    [36]https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=241964
    and over the holidays I got it essentially functionally
    complete
    ... so it's now available in Chrome canary builds by running
    with the --enable-experimental-web-platform-features flag
    ... there are some outstanding bugs / limitations with it, but
    the plan is to have those fixed in time to ship with Chrome 35
    or sooner - i.e. on by default in daily builds by the end of
    March at the latest.
    ... Then we'll revisit the touch-action-delay vs. full pointer
    event debate

      [36] https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=241964

    smaug: We're continuing major re-architecture to make
    touch-action-delay possible but don't have anything that is
    useful end-to-end yet

    DS: How receptive is FireFox to pointer events work?

    <smaug> rbyers: is it documented somewhere how touch-action and
    touchevents work together ?

    AS: We're working with the community, will have more details
    next time

    <smaug> in Chromium impl

    smaug: With just touch-action (not touch-action-delay) there
    really isn't much interaction at all. Details are (burried)
    here:
    [37]https://docs.google.com/a/chromium.org/document/d/1CV2AXyrd
    PdGSRypAQcfGrgQVuWYi50EzTmVsMLWgRPM/edit

      [37] https://docs.google.com/a/chromium.org/document/d/1CV2AXyrdPdGSRypAQcfGrgQVuWYi50EzTmVsMLWgRPM/edit

    <smaug> rbyers: but do you always dispatch touch events then?

    <smaug> or only if there are listeners?

    <smaug> touch-action is effectively opt-in

    <mbrubeck_> hey guys -- sorry, I'm traveling and lost track of
    time zones

    <mbrubeck_> looking for somewhere I can use a phone

    <mbrubeck_> oh, looks like you are finished. oops

    smaug: touch-ACTION: auto doesn't change behavior at all. Yes
    we always send touch events - the question is just when our
    'touchcancel on scoll' behavior kicks in.

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: jacob add a non-normative note that CSSOM extends
    mouse events [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion06]
    [NEW] ACTION: Jacob propose text re "Add non-normative example
    section to mouse compat event mapping"; get confirmation from
    Patrick [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Jacob propose text to address bug 21749; confirm
    change with Francois Remy [recorded in
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Jacob propose text to address bug 21951 [recorded
    in
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Jacob reply to Patrick's "List of Pointer Events"
    ... thread [recorded in
    [42]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Rick reply to Patrick's "List of Pointer Events"
    ... thread [recorded in
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion05]

    [End of minutes]
  
Received on Tuesday, 7 January 2014 18:04:20 UTC

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