Re: Minutes of the joint PF & DPUP IG telco

suggested possible route:

HTML already has elements with a defined default ARIA role

examples:
<section> role="region"
<article> role="article"

define set of roles using these elements as base roles

<article>
<section role="chapter">


--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>


On 26 August 2014 09:54, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:

> Minutes are here:
>
> http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-minutes.html
>
> with the textual version below. I hope I got everbody's name all right; if
> not, my apologies (and contact me so that I could change it). Thanks to Tim
> Cole for scribing.
>
> Thanks to all for coming!
>
> Ivan
>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Digital Publishing Activity Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> GPG: 0x343F1A3D
> WebID: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf#me
>
>
>
>    [1]W3C
>
>       [1] http://www.w3.org/
>
>              Joint meeting of the WAI PF WG and the DPUB IG
>
> 25 Aug 2014
>
>    See also: [2]IRC log
>
>       [2] http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-irc
>
> Attendees
>
>    Present
>           For the PF WG: Janina Sajka, Rich Schwerdtfeger, George
>           Kerscher, Matt Haas, Suzann Keohane, Shane McCarron,
>           Joseph Scheuhammer (clown), Matt King, Bryan Garaventa,
>           Lisa Seeman, Jon Gunderson, Cynthia Shelly
>           For the DPUB IG: Deborah Kaplan (dkapklan3), Ivan
>           Herman, Luc Audrain, Tzviya Siegman, Paul Belfanti
>           (pBelfanti), David Stroup, Tim Cole, Markus Gylling
>           (mgylling), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Peter Kreutzberger
>           (pkra)
>
>    Chair
>           Ivan Herman
>
>    Scribe
>           Tim Cole
>
> Contents
>
>      * [3]Topics
>
>      * [4]Structural Semantics
>      * [5]Other areas of a11y related collaboration
>
>      [6]Summary of Action Items
>      __________________________________________________________
>
>    <trackbot> Date: 25 August 2014
>
>    Group references: [7]PF WG, [8]DPUB IG
>
>       [7] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/
>       [8] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/
>
> structural semantics
>
>    tzviya: working on building vocabulary we would like to see
>    added in Open Web Platform
>
>    tzviya: example: chapter -- concept doesn't exist in HTML
>
>    <tzviya> [9]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics
>
>       [9] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics
>
>    tzviya: some of these structural elements have associated
>    behaviors.
>
>    a key reason is because of the way some of these elements
>    interact with assistative technologies
>
>    Rich move from role to something else.
>
>    tzviya -- tag would be managed by PF, but values by IDPF
>
>    Rich - you want this to work with HTML Validator
>
>    tzviya: Absolutely.
>
>    rich - currently limit aria values
>
>    Rich -- reluctance to open values up because you might not be
>    able to provide fall back if browser didn't know about
>    values...
>
>    clown - some of the APIs take role string as is and stick into
>    a property
>
>    <richardschwerdtfeger> <div role=“chapter region”>
>
>    Rich - do you see an issue with authors having second value (as
>    fall back)?
>
>    markus - may be a non-starter for publishers; hard enough to
>    get them to include basic semantics
>
>    tzviya - may not be too hard for larger publishers; but for
>    smaller publishers a decision tree might be too much.
>
>    Matt - if native element was <div> you have an element with no
>    semantics
>
>    Rich - but not an issue based on current definitions; even if
>    browser doesn't know about it today, assistive technologies
>    have something to work with...
>
>    <clown> I'm still getting: This conference is full. Any way to
>    expand the size?
>
>    Rich - dpub IG wants to use role attribute, but if browser
>    doesn't know about value, then a second value is needed for
>    fall back
>
>    Rich -- that may be a non-starter, but if you have a single
>    value, falling back to native language may be good enough
>
>    cynthia - that should be acceptable
>
>    jon gunderson -- dom may eventually have a computed role. How
>    would fall back option affect computed role?
>
>    Rich - if we had computed role, could compare it to computed
>    role and if they don't match generate a warning
>
>    jon 2nd question -- would developers take EPUB3 roles and try
>    to use in HTML 5; would validators distinguish between EPUB3
>    and HTML5 for validation
>
>    Ivan - what is the way a separate group can define new roles
>    while HTML 5 group is doing their thing?
>
>    Rich - no mechanism now, but we will have to address long term
>
>    Shane - roles accepted by Validator are defined by a document
>    that both PF and HTML 5 can edit
>
>    Ivan - do that reference that document?
>
>    Shane - they refer to it manually.
>
>    Ivan - both groups have write permissions to this document?
>
>    Shane - that is my understanding
>
>    Ivan - then EPUB could get values added by working with either
>    group, but how big is EPUB list
>
>    tzviya about 100 terms
>
>    <tzviya> epub 3 structural semantic vocab
>    [10]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
>
>      [10] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
>
>    <dauwhe> Is this the doc in question?
>    [11]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab
>
>      [11] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab
>
>    Shane - the role attribute spec references the document.
>
>    Shane role attribute spec allows for independent role
>    vocabularies to be added by rdfa mechanism
>
>    Shane would it be acceptable to have EPUB role values scoped?
>
>    markus - some of the EPUB roles will be common, some are more
>    niched (albeit still important)
>
>    markus - it could be that the niche roles could be separated
>    out in a prefixed way.
>
>    ??? if might be a tough call to say which are the most generic,
>    most crucial
>
>    <Luc> It would preferable to have a general mechanism for
>    adding vocabulary for EPUB
>
>    shaneM - validator was rejecting namespaced role values, but
>    they are not opposed to it, just need to close the loop
>
>    Rich - you don't want to namespace everything that is commonly
>    used -- is this a fair assumption
>
>    markus - yes
>
>    tzviya - the real desire is to create html once and use it
>    everywhere
>
>    <Luc> +1
>
>    tzviya - we want to avoid namespaces and make it easy to author
>
>    <richardschwerdtfeger> role=“epub:chapter”
>
>    tzviya - would prefer not to namespace chapter, for example
>
>    tzviya - and if you do namespace more obscure roles, they are
>    less likely to get used.
>
>    <mgylling> [12]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
>
>      [12] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
>
>    lisa - needs to be successful not just for EPUB authors but
>    also for others with cognitive disabilities
>
>    ivan - some of the dpub / EPUB roles are very useful for other
>    communities
>
>    <ShaneM> Note that some roles are already esoteric.
>
>    <Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask whether we intend these roles
>    only for a11y? Or also for general use?
>
>    <ShaneM> "Accessibility is for both meat and machine" is
>    something I get to say all the time.
>
>    janina - overarching question: you don't need a disability to
>    appreciate roles; do we anticipate that this will have a
>    general applicability?
>
>    several - yes.
>
>    Rich - we would do harm if we didn't have a vehicle for opening
>    this up to broader community.
>
>    ivan - need to see what is next step. We need to document where
>    we want to go and how.
>
>    Rich - we need a joint effort between dp ig and pf wg (aria
>    subteam)
>
>    markus - that makes sense. one of the things people in idpf
>    want to know is the size of the effort.
>
>    Rich - need to provide that to dp ig but also other
>    stakeholders within idpf
>
>    janina and tzviya have an action to start this from the pf and
>    dpub ig sides
>
>    ivan - both groups will be meeting f2f at TPAC. we should try
>    to find time to have a session together
>
> Other areas of a11y related collaboration
>
>    deborah - what is the why that dp task force can collaborate
>    with PF?
>
>    Rich need someone to take lead and run with this.
>
>    this will take weekly or near weekly meetings
>
>    markus - I think deborah's question was about more broad
>    collaboration
>
>    janina - we could write a statement with deliverable as well as
>    with a general statement about liaison
>
>    ivan - so what are the reasonable deliverables?
>
>    deborah - what are the deliverables?
>
>    rich - 1. role attribute value module, 2. a guide for browsers,
>    3. guidelines for authors
>
>    we learned in the ARIA 1.1 effort that we had to write
>    specification for implementation
>
>    ivan - still a little in the dark, what would a guide for
>    browser / user agent guidelines mean? what could dp ig
>    contribute?
>
>    Rich - each browser maps to accessible technologies on the
>    platform
>
>    rich - for a book reader, how do we specify that we want to
>    navigate by book chapter?
>
>    rich - does W3 specify or does IPDF?
>
>    rich - if you put EPUB semantics in your document, who defines
>    how the browser uses this structure?
>
>    markus - that seems like something that could stay (for now at
>    least) with dp ig / IDPF
>
>    focus for now on the mappings to accessible APIs
>
>    ??? how about authoring practices?
>
>    markus - there are already some resources on authoring best
>    practices
>
>    ivan - dp ig should look at core accessibility guidelines and
>    see how complete they are for dp
>
>    deborah - pf wg wants to address gaps as they are identified
>
>    george - the semantics that are being introduced go a long way
>
>    tzviya - a lot of what deborah is getting at seems overlaps.
>    can deborah work with tzviya and janina
>
>    to be clear pf wg wants to help identify gaps, though other
>    groups may work on these issues
>
>    ivan - tzviya, janina and deborah will try to have a document
>    by about mid-September. follow-up with call or during TPAC
>
> Summary of Action Items
>
>    Action: Tzviya, Janina, and Deborah to have a document by about
>    mid-September.  Follow-up with call or during TPAC
>    [End of minutes]
>      __________________________________________________________
>
>
>     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [13]scribe.perl version
>     1.138 ([14]CVS log)
>     $Date: 2014-08-26 07:09:56 $
>
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>
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