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Minutes of the joint PF & DPUP IG telco

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 10:54:36 +0200
Cc: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>, Markus Gylling <markus.gylling@gmail.com>
Message-Id: <E9070772-DEE6-4CD8-8510-2CA85BA68DAA@w3.org>
To: W3C Public Digital Publishing IG Mailing List <public-digipub-ig-comment@w3.org>, public-pfwg@w3.org
Minutes are here:


with the textual version below. I hope I got everbody's name all right; if not, my apologies (and contact me so that I could change it). Thanks to Tim Cole for scribing.

Thanks to all for coming!


Ivan Herman, W3C 
Digital Publishing Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
GPG: 0x343F1A3D
WebID: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf#me


      [1] http://www.w3.org/

             Joint meeting of the WAI PF WG and the DPUB IG

25 Aug 2014

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-irc


          For the PF WG: Janina Sajka, Rich Schwerdtfeger, George
          Kerscher, Matt Haas, Suzann Keohane, Shane McCarron,
          Joseph Scheuhammer (clown), Matt King, Bryan Garaventa,
          Lisa Seeman, Jon Gunderson, Cynthia Shelly
          For the DPUB IG: Deborah Kaplan (dkapklan3), Ivan
          Herman, Luc Audrain, Tzviya Siegman, Paul Belfanti
          (pBelfanti), David Stroup, Tim Cole, Markus Gylling
          (mgylling), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Peter Kreutzberger

          Ivan Herman

          Tim Cole


     * [3]Topics

     * [4]Structural Semantics
     * [5]Other areas of a11y related collaboration

     [6]Summary of Action Items

   <trackbot> Date: 25 August 2014

   Group references: [7]PF WG, [8]DPUB IG

      [7] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/
      [8] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/

structural semantics

   tzviya: working on building vocabulary we would like to see
   added in Open Web Platform

   tzviya: example: chapter -- concept doesn't exist in HTML

   <tzviya> [9]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics

      [9] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics

   tzviya: some of these structural elements have associated

   a key reason is because of the way some of these elements
   interact with assistative technologies

   Rich move from role to something else.

   tzviya -- tag would be managed by PF, but values by IDPF

   Rich - you want this to work with HTML Validator

   tzviya: Absolutely.

   rich - currently limit aria values

   Rich -- reluctance to open values up because you might not be
   able to provide fall back if browser didn't know about

   clown - some of the APIs take role string as is and stick into
   a property

   <richardschwerdtfeger> <div role=“chapter region”>

   Rich - do you see an issue with authors having second value (as
   fall back)?

   markus - may be a non-starter for publishers; hard enough to
   get them to include basic semantics

   tzviya - may not be too hard for larger publishers; but for
   smaller publishers a decision tree might be too much.

   Matt - if native element was <div> you have an element with no

   Rich - but not an issue based on current definitions; even if
   browser doesn't know about it today, assistive technologies
   have something to work with...

   <clown> I'm still getting: This conference is full. Any way to
   expand the size?

   Rich - dpub IG wants to use role attribute, but if browser
   doesn't know about value, then a second value is needed for
   fall back

   Rich -- that may be a non-starter, but if you have a single
   value, falling back to native language may be good enough

   cynthia - that should be acceptable

   jon gunderson -- dom may eventually have a computed role. How
   would fall back option affect computed role?

   Rich - if we had computed role, could compare it to computed
   role and if they don't match generate a warning

   jon 2nd question -- would developers take EPUB3 roles and try
   to use in HTML 5; would validators distinguish between EPUB3
   and HTML5 for validation

   Ivan - what is the way a separate group can define new roles
   while HTML 5 group is doing their thing?

   Rich - no mechanism now, but we will have to address long term

   Shane - roles accepted by Validator are defined by a document
   that both PF and HTML 5 can edit

   Ivan - do that reference that document?

   Shane - they refer to it manually.

   Ivan - both groups have write permissions to this document?

   Shane - that is my understanding

   Ivan - then EPUB could get values added by working with either
   group, but how big is EPUB list

   tzviya about 100 terms

   <tzviya> epub 3 structural semantic vocab

     [10] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/

   <dauwhe> Is this the doc in question?

     [11] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab

   Shane - the role attribute spec references the document.

   Shane role attribute spec allows for independent role
   vocabularies to be added by rdfa mechanism

   Shane would it be acceptable to have EPUB role values scoped?

   markus - some of the EPUB roles will be common, some are more
   niched (albeit still important)

   markus - it could be that the niche roles could be separated
   out in a prefixed way.

   ??? if might be a tough call to say which are the most generic,
   most crucial

   <Luc> It would preferable to have a general mechanism for
   adding vocabulary for EPUB

   shaneM - validator was rejecting namespaced role values, but
   they are not opposed to it, just need to close the loop

   Rich - you don't want to namespace everything that is commonly
   used -- is this a fair assumption

   markus - yes

   tzviya - the real desire is to create html once and use it

   <Luc> +1

   tzviya - we want to avoid namespaces and make it easy to author

   <richardschwerdtfeger> role=“epub:chapter”

   tzviya - would prefer not to namespace chapter, for example

   tzviya - and if you do namespace more obscure roles, they are
   less likely to get used.

   <mgylling> [12]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/

     [12] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/

   lisa - needs to be successful not just for EPUB authors but
   also for others with cognitive disabilities

   ivan - some of the dpub / EPUB roles are very useful for other

   <ShaneM> Note that some roles are already esoteric.

   <Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask whether we intend these roles
   only for a11y? Or also for general use?

   <ShaneM> "Accessibility is for both meat and machine" is
   something I get to say all the time.

   janina - overarching question: you don't need a disability to
   appreciate roles; do we anticipate that this will have a
   general applicability?

   several - yes.

   Rich - we would do harm if we didn't have a vehicle for opening
   this up to broader community.

   ivan - need to see what is next step. We need to document where
   we want to go and how.

   Rich - we need a joint effort between dp ig and pf wg (aria

   markus - that makes sense. one of the things people in idpf
   want to know is the size of the effort.

   Rich - need to provide that to dp ig but also other
   stakeholders within idpf

   janina and tzviya have an action to start this from the pf and
   dpub ig sides

   ivan - both groups will be meeting f2f at TPAC. we should try
   to find time to have a session together

Other areas of a11y related collaboration

   deborah - what is the why that dp task force can collaborate
   with PF?

   Rich need someone to take lead and run with this.

   this will take weekly or near weekly meetings

   markus - I think deborah's question was about more broad

   janina - we could write a statement with deliverable as well as
   with a general statement about liaison

   ivan - so what are the reasonable deliverables?

   deborah - what are the deliverables?

   rich - 1. role attribute value module, 2. a guide for browsers,
   3. guidelines for authors

   we learned in the ARIA 1.1 effort that we had to write
   specification for implementation

   ivan - still a little in the dark, what would a guide for
   browser / user agent guidelines mean? what could dp ig

   Rich - each browser maps to accessible technologies on the

   rich - for a book reader, how do we specify that we want to
   navigate by book chapter?

   rich - does W3 specify or does IPDF?

   rich - if you put EPUB semantics in your document, who defines
   how the browser uses this structure?

   markus - that seems like something that could stay (for now at
   least) with dp ig / IDPF

   focus for now on the mappings to accessible APIs

   ??? how about authoring practices?

   markus - there are already some resources on authoring best

   ivan - dp ig should look at core accessibility guidelines and
   see how complete they are for dp

   deborah - pf wg wants to address gaps as they are identified

   george - the semantics that are being introduced go a long way

   tzviya - a lot of what deborah is getting at seems overlaps.
   can deborah work with tzviya and janina

   to be clear pf wg wants to help identify gaps, though other
   groups may work on these issues

   ivan - tzviya, janina and deborah will try to have a document
   by about mid-September. follow-up with call or during TPAC

Summary of Action Items

   Action: Tzviya, Janina, and Deborah to have a document by about
   mid-September.  Follow-up with call or during TPAC
   [End of minutes]

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Received on Tuesday, 26 August 2014 08:55:06 UTC

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