- From: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 22:48:28 -0400
- To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
- Cc: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>, W3C Public Digital Publishing IG Mailing List <public-digipub-ig-comment@w3.org>, W3C WAI Protocols & Formats <public-pfwg@w3.org>, Markus Gylling <markus.gylling@gmail.com>
A reasonable suggestion, but ... Steven Faulkner writes: > suggested possible route: > > HTML already has elements with a defined default ARIA role > > examples: > <section> role="region" > <article> role="article" > > define set of roles using these elements as base roles > > <article> > <section role="chapter"> > Perhaps the chapter has sections and even sub-Sections? Or, the chapters themselves are nested within "parts." So, the ARIA-dPub aware UA could nest, recognizing the hierarchy? And the nonaware browser would at least fallback to semantically meaningful demarcations? Janina > > -- > > Regards > > SteveF > HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> > > > On 26 August 2014 09:54, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote: > > > Minutes are here: > > > > http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-minutes.html > > > > with the textual version below. I hope I got everbody's name all right; if > > not, my apologies (and contact me so that I could change it). Thanks to Tim > > Cole for scribing. > > > > Thanks to all for coming! > > > > Ivan > > > > ---- > > Ivan Herman, W3C > > Digital Publishing Activity Lead > > Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ > > mobile: +31-641044153 > > GPG: 0x343F1A3D > > WebID: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf#me > > > > > > > > [1]W3C > > > > [1] http://www.w3.org/ > > > > Joint meeting of the WAI PF WG and the DPUB IG > > > > 25 Aug 2014 > > > > See also: [2]IRC log > > > > [2] http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-irc > > > > Attendees > > > > Present > > For the PF WG: Janina Sajka, Rich Schwerdtfeger, George > > Kerscher, Matt Haas, Suzann Keohane, Shane McCarron, > > Joseph Scheuhammer (clown), Matt King, Bryan Garaventa, > > Lisa Seeman, Jon Gunderson, Cynthia Shelly > > For the DPUB IG: Deborah Kaplan (dkapklan3), Ivan > > Herman, Luc Audrain, Tzviya Siegman, Paul Belfanti > > (pBelfanti), David Stroup, Tim Cole, Markus Gylling > > (mgylling), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Peter Kreutzberger > > (pkra) > > > > Chair > > Ivan Herman > > > > Scribe > > Tim Cole > > > > Contents > > > > * [3]Topics > > > > * [4]Structural Semantics > > * [5]Other areas of a11y related collaboration > > > > [6]Summary of Action Items > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > <trackbot> Date: 25 August 2014 > > > > Group references: [7]PF WG, [8]DPUB IG > > > > [7] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/ > > [8] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/ > > > > structural semantics > > > > tzviya: working on building vocabulary we would like to see > > added in Open Web Platform > > > > tzviya: example: chapter -- concept doesn't exist in HTML > > > > <tzviya> [9]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics > > > > [9] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics > > > > tzviya: some of these structural elements have associated > > behaviors. > > > > a key reason is because of the way some of these elements > > interact with assistative technologies > > > > Rich move from role to something else. > > > > tzviya -- tag would be managed by PF, but values by IDPF > > > > Rich - you want this to work with HTML Validator > > > > tzviya: Absolutely. > > > > rich - currently limit aria values > > > > Rich -- reluctance to open values up because you might not be > > able to provide fall back if browser didn't know about > > values... > > > > clown - some of the APIs take role string as is and stick into > > a property > > > > <richardschwerdtfeger> <div role=“chapter region”> > > > > Rich - do you see an issue with authors having second value (as > > fall back)? > > > > markus - may be a non-starter for publishers; hard enough to > > get them to include basic semantics > > > > tzviya - may not be too hard for larger publishers; but for > > smaller publishers a decision tree might be too much. > > > > Matt - if native element was <div> you have an element with no > > semantics > > > > Rich - but not an issue based on current definitions; even if > > browser doesn't know about it today, assistive technologies > > have something to work with... > > > > <clown> I'm still getting: This conference is full. Any way to > > expand the size? > > > > Rich - dpub IG wants to use role attribute, but if browser > > doesn't know about value, then a second value is needed for > > fall back > > > > Rich -- that may be a non-starter, but if you have a single > > value, falling back to native language may be good enough > > > > cynthia - that should be acceptable > > > > jon gunderson -- dom may eventually have a computed role. How > > would fall back option affect computed role? > > > > Rich - if we had computed role, could compare it to computed > > role and if they don't match generate a warning > > > > jon 2nd question -- would developers take EPUB3 roles and try > > to use in HTML 5; would validators distinguish between EPUB3 > > and HTML5 for validation > > > > Ivan - what is the way a separate group can define new roles > > while HTML 5 group is doing their thing? > > > > Rich - no mechanism now, but we will have to address long term > > > > Shane - roles accepted by Validator are defined by a document > > that both PF and HTML 5 can edit > > > > Ivan - do that reference that document? > > > > Shane - they refer to it manually. > > > > Ivan - both groups have write permissions to this document? > > > > Shane - that is my understanding > > > > Ivan - then EPUB could get values added by working with either > > group, but how big is EPUB list > > > > tzviya about 100 terms > > > > <tzviya> epub 3 structural semantic vocab > > [10]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/ > > > > [10] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/ > > > > <dauwhe> Is this the doc in question? > > [11]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab > > > > [11] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab > > > > Shane - the role attribute spec references the document. > > > > Shane role attribute spec allows for independent role > > vocabularies to be added by rdfa mechanism > > > > Shane would it be acceptable to have EPUB role values scoped? > > > > markus - some of the EPUB roles will be common, some are more > > niched (albeit still important) > > > > markus - it could be that the niche roles could be separated > > out in a prefixed way. > > > > ??? if might be a tough call to say which are the most generic, > > most crucial > > > > <Luc> It would preferable to have a general mechanism for > > adding vocabulary for EPUB > > > > shaneM - validator was rejecting namespaced role values, but > > they are not opposed to it, just need to close the loop > > > > Rich - you don't want to namespace everything that is commonly > > used -- is this a fair assumption > > > > markus - yes > > > > tzviya - the real desire is to create html once and use it > > everywhere > > > > <Luc> +1 > > > > tzviya - we want to avoid namespaces and make it easy to author > > > > <richardschwerdtfeger> role=“epub:chapter” > > > > tzviya - would prefer not to namespace chapter, for example > > > > tzviya - and if you do namespace more obscure roles, they are > > less likely to get used. > > > > <mgylling> [12]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/ > > > > [12] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/ > > > > lisa - needs to be successful not just for EPUB authors but > > also for others with cognitive disabilities > > > > ivan - some of the dpub / EPUB roles are very useful for other > > communities > > > > <ShaneM> Note that some roles are already esoteric. > > > > <Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask whether we intend these roles > > only for a11y? Or also for general use? > > > > <ShaneM> "Accessibility is for both meat and machine" is > > something I get to say all the time. > > > > janina - overarching question: you don't need a disability to > > appreciate roles; do we anticipate that this will have a > > general applicability? > > > > several - yes. > > > > Rich - we would do harm if we didn't have a vehicle for opening > > this up to broader community. > > > > ivan - need to see what is next step. We need to document where > > we want to go and how. > > > > Rich - we need a joint effort between dp ig and pf wg (aria > > subteam) > > > > markus - that makes sense. one of the things people in idpf > > want to know is the size of the effort. > > > > Rich - need to provide that to dp ig but also other > > stakeholders within idpf > > > > janina and tzviya have an action to start this from the pf and > > dpub ig sides > > > > ivan - both groups will be meeting f2f at TPAC. we should try > > to find time to have a session together > > > > Other areas of a11y related collaboration > > > > deborah - what is the why that dp task force can collaborate > > with PF? > > > > Rich need someone to take lead and run with this. > > > > this will take weekly or near weekly meetings > > > > markus - I think deborah's question was about more broad > > collaboration > > > > janina - we could write a statement with deliverable as well as > > with a general statement about liaison > > > > ivan - so what are the reasonable deliverables? > > > > deborah - what are the deliverables? > > > > rich - 1. role attribute value module, 2. a guide for browsers, > > 3. guidelines for authors > > > > we learned in the ARIA 1.1 effort that we had to write > > specification for implementation > > > > ivan - still a little in the dark, what would a guide for > > browser / user agent guidelines mean? what could dp ig > > contribute? > > > > Rich - each browser maps to accessible technologies on the > > platform > > > > rich - for a book reader, how do we specify that we want to > > navigate by book chapter? > > > > rich - does W3 specify or does IPDF? > > > > rich - if you put EPUB semantics in your document, who defines > > how the browser uses this structure? > > > > markus - that seems like something that could stay (for now at > > least) with dp ig / IDPF > > > > focus for now on the mappings to accessible APIs > > > > ??? how about authoring practices? > > > > markus - there are already some resources on authoring best > > practices > > > > ivan - dp ig should look at core accessibility guidelines and > > see how complete they are for dp > > > > deborah - pf wg wants to address gaps as they are identified > > > > george - the semantics that are being introduced go a long way > > > > tzviya - a lot of what deborah is getting at seems overlaps. > > can deborah work with tzviya and janina > > > > to be clear pf wg wants to help identify gaps, though other > > groups may work on these issues > > > > ivan - tzviya, janina and deborah will try to have a document > > by about mid-September. follow-up with call or during TPAC > > > > Summary of Action Items > > > > Action: Tzviya, Janina, and Deborah to have a document by about > > mid-September. Follow-up with call or during TPAC > > [End of minutes] > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Minutes formatted by David Booth's [13]scribe.perl version > > 1.138 ([14]CVS log) > > $Date: 2014-08-26 07:09:56 $ > > > > [13] > > http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm > > [14] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/ > > > > > > > > -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net Email: janina@rednote.net Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Protocols & Formats http://www.w3.org/wai/pf Indie UI http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/
Received on Wednesday, 27 August 2014 02:49:03 UTC