Re: Minutes of the joint PF & DPUP IG telco

A reasonable suggestion, but ...

Steven Faulkner writes:
> suggested possible route:
> 
> HTML already has elements with a defined default ARIA role
> 
> examples:
> <section> role="region"
> <article> role="article"
> 
> define set of roles using these elements as base roles
> 
> <article>
> <section role="chapter">
> 

Perhaps the chapter has sections and even sub-Sections? Or, the chapters
themselves are nested within "parts."

So, the ARIA-dPub aware UA could nest, recognizing the hierarchy?
And the nonaware browser would at least fallback to semantically
meaningful demarcations?

Janina

> 
> --
> 
> Regards
> 
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
> 
> 
> On 26 August 2014 09:54, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
> 
> > Minutes are here:
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-minutes.html
> >
> > with the textual version below. I hope I got everbody's name all right; if
> > not, my apologies (and contact me so that I could change it). Thanks to Tim
> > Cole for scribing.
> >
> > Thanks to all for coming!
> >
> > Ivan
> >
> > ----
> > Ivan Herman, W3C
> > Digital Publishing Activity Lead
> > Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> > mobile: +31-641044153
> > GPG: 0x343F1A3D
> > WebID: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf#me
> >
> >
> >
> >    [1]W3C
> >
> >       [1] http://www.w3.org/
> >
> >              Joint meeting of the WAI PF WG and the DPUB IG
> >
> > 25 Aug 2014
> >
> >    See also: [2]IRC log
> >
> >       [2] http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-irc
> >
> > Attendees
> >
> >    Present
> >           For the PF WG: Janina Sajka, Rich Schwerdtfeger, George
> >           Kerscher, Matt Haas, Suzann Keohane, Shane McCarron,
> >           Joseph Scheuhammer (clown), Matt King, Bryan Garaventa,
> >           Lisa Seeman, Jon Gunderson, Cynthia Shelly
> >           For the DPUB IG: Deborah Kaplan (dkapklan3), Ivan
> >           Herman, Luc Audrain, Tzviya Siegman, Paul Belfanti
> >           (pBelfanti), David Stroup, Tim Cole, Markus Gylling
> >           (mgylling), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Peter Kreutzberger
> >           (pkra)
> >
> >    Chair
> >           Ivan Herman
> >
> >    Scribe
> >           Tim Cole
> >
> > Contents
> >
> >      * [3]Topics
> >
> >      * [4]Structural Semantics
> >      * [5]Other areas of a11y related collaboration
> >
> >      [6]Summary of Action Items
> >      __________________________________________________________
> >
> >    <trackbot> Date: 25 August 2014
> >
> >    Group references: [7]PF WG, [8]DPUB IG
> >
> >       [7] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/
> >       [8] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/
> >
> > structural semantics
> >
> >    tzviya: working on building vocabulary we would like to see
> >    added in Open Web Platform
> >
> >    tzviya: example: chapter -- concept doesn't exist in HTML
> >
> >    <tzviya> [9]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics
> >
> >       [9] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics
> >
> >    tzviya: some of these structural elements have associated
> >    behaviors.
> >
> >    a key reason is because of the way some of these elements
> >    interact with assistative technologies
> >
> >    Rich move from role to something else.
> >
> >    tzviya -- tag would be managed by PF, but values by IDPF
> >
> >    Rich - you want this to work with HTML Validator
> >
> >    tzviya: Absolutely.
> >
> >    rich - currently limit aria values
> >
> >    Rich -- reluctance to open values up because you might not be
> >    able to provide fall back if browser didn't know about
> >    values...
> >
> >    clown - some of the APIs take role string as is and stick into
> >    a property
> >
> >    <richardschwerdtfeger> <div role=“chapter region”>
> >
> >    Rich - do you see an issue with authors having second value (as
> >    fall back)?
> >
> >    markus - may be a non-starter for publishers; hard enough to
> >    get them to include basic semantics
> >
> >    tzviya - may not be too hard for larger publishers; but for
> >    smaller publishers a decision tree might be too much.
> >
> >    Matt - if native element was <div> you have an element with no
> >    semantics
> >
> >    Rich - but not an issue based on current definitions; even if
> >    browser doesn't know about it today, assistive technologies
> >    have something to work with...
> >
> >    <clown> I'm still getting: This conference is full. Any way to
> >    expand the size?
> >
> >    Rich - dpub IG wants to use role attribute, but if browser
> >    doesn't know about value, then a second value is needed for
> >    fall back
> >
> >    Rich -- that may be a non-starter, but if you have a single
> >    value, falling back to native language may be good enough
> >
> >    cynthia - that should be acceptable
> >
> >    jon gunderson -- dom may eventually have a computed role. How
> >    would fall back option affect computed role?
> >
> >    Rich - if we had computed role, could compare it to computed
> >    role and if they don't match generate a warning
> >
> >    jon 2nd question -- would developers take EPUB3 roles and try
> >    to use in HTML 5; would validators distinguish between EPUB3
> >    and HTML5 for validation
> >
> >    Ivan - what is the way a separate group can define new roles
> >    while HTML 5 group is doing their thing?
> >
> >    Rich - no mechanism now, but we will have to address long term
> >
> >    Shane - roles accepted by Validator are defined by a document
> >    that both PF and HTML 5 can edit
> >
> >    Ivan - do that reference that document?
> >
> >    Shane - they refer to it manually.
> >
> >    Ivan - both groups have write permissions to this document?
> >
> >    Shane - that is my understanding
> >
> >    Ivan - then EPUB could get values added by working with either
> >    group, but how big is EPUB list
> >
> >    tzviya about 100 terms
> >
> >    <tzviya> epub 3 structural semantic vocab
> >    [10]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
> >
> >      [10] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
> >
> >    <dauwhe> Is this the doc in question?
> >    [11]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab
> >
> >      [11] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab
> >
> >    Shane - the role attribute spec references the document.
> >
> >    Shane role attribute spec allows for independent role
> >    vocabularies to be added by rdfa mechanism
> >
> >    Shane would it be acceptable to have EPUB role values scoped?
> >
> >    markus - some of the EPUB roles will be common, some are more
> >    niched (albeit still important)
> >
> >    markus - it could be that the niche roles could be separated
> >    out in a prefixed way.
> >
> >    ??? if might be a tough call to say which are the most generic,
> >    most crucial
> >
> >    <Luc> It would preferable to have a general mechanism for
> >    adding vocabulary for EPUB
> >
> >    shaneM - validator was rejecting namespaced role values, but
> >    they are not opposed to it, just need to close the loop
> >
> >    Rich - you don't want to namespace everything that is commonly
> >    used -- is this a fair assumption
> >
> >    markus - yes
> >
> >    tzviya - the real desire is to create html once and use it
> >    everywhere
> >
> >    <Luc> +1
> >
> >    tzviya - we want to avoid namespaces and make it easy to author
> >
> >    <richardschwerdtfeger> role=“epub:chapter”
> >
> >    tzviya - would prefer not to namespace chapter, for example
> >
> >    tzviya - and if you do namespace more obscure roles, they are
> >    less likely to get used.
> >
> >    <mgylling> [12]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
> >
> >      [12] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
> >
> >    lisa - needs to be successful not just for EPUB authors but
> >    also for others with cognitive disabilities
> >
> >    ivan - some of the dpub / EPUB roles are very useful for other
> >    communities
> >
> >    <ShaneM> Note that some roles are already esoteric.
> >
> >    <Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask whether we intend these roles
> >    only for a11y? Or also for general use?
> >
> >    <ShaneM> "Accessibility is for both meat and machine" is
> >    something I get to say all the time.
> >
> >    janina - overarching question: you don't need a disability to
> >    appreciate roles; do we anticipate that this will have a
> >    general applicability?
> >
> >    several - yes.
> >
> >    Rich - we would do harm if we didn't have a vehicle for opening
> >    this up to broader community.
> >
> >    ivan - need to see what is next step. We need to document where
> >    we want to go and how.
> >
> >    Rich - we need a joint effort between dp ig and pf wg (aria
> >    subteam)
> >
> >    markus - that makes sense. one of the things people in idpf
> >    want to know is the size of the effort.
> >
> >    Rich - need to provide that to dp ig but also other
> >    stakeholders within idpf
> >
> >    janina and tzviya have an action to start this from the pf and
> >    dpub ig sides
> >
> >    ivan - both groups will be meeting f2f at TPAC. we should try
> >    to find time to have a session together
> >
> > Other areas of a11y related collaboration
> >
> >    deborah - what is the why that dp task force can collaborate
> >    with PF?
> >
> >    Rich need someone to take lead and run with this.
> >
> >    this will take weekly or near weekly meetings
> >
> >    markus - I think deborah's question was about more broad
> >    collaboration
> >
> >    janina - we could write a statement with deliverable as well as
> >    with a general statement about liaison
> >
> >    ivan - so what are the reasonable deliverables?
> >
> >    deborah - what are the deliverables?
> >
> >    rich - 1. role attribute value module, 2. a guide for browsers,
> >    3. guidelines for authors
> >
> >    we learned in the ARIA 1.1 effort that we had to write
> >    specification for implementation
> >
> >    ivan - still a little in the dark, what would a guide for
> >    browser / user agent guidelines mean? what could dp ig
> >    contribute?
> >
> >    Rich - each browser maps to accessible technologies on the
> >    platform
> >
> >    rich - for a book reader, how do we specify that we want to
> >    navigate by book chapter?
> >
> >    rich - does W3 specify or does IPDF?
> >
> >    rich - if you put EPUB semantics in your document, who defines
> >    how the browser uses this structure?
> >
> >    markus - that seems like something that could stay (for now at
> >    least) with dp ig / IDPF
> >
> >    focus for now on the mappings to accessible APIs
> >
> >    ??? how about authoring practices?
> >
> >    markus - there are already some resources on authoring best
> >    practices
> >
> >    ivan - dp ig should look at core accessibility guidelines and
> >    see how complete they are for dp
> >
> >    deborah - pf wg wants to address gaps as they are identified
> >
> >    george - the semantics that are being introduced go a long way
> >
> >    tzviya - a lot of what deborah is getting at seems overlaps.
> >    can deborah work with tzviya and janina
> >
> >    to be clear pf wg wants to help identify gaps, though other
> >    groups may work on these issues
> >
> >    ivan - tzviya, janina and deborah will try to have a document
> >    by about mid-September. follow-up with call or during TPAC
> >
> > Summary of Action Items
> >
> >    Action: Tzviya, Janina, and Deborah to have a document by about
> >    mid-September.  Follow-up with call or during TPAC
> >    [End of minutes]
> >      __________________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [13]scribe.perl version
> >     1.138 ([14]CVS log)
> >     $Date: 2014-08-26 07:09:56 $
> >
> >      [13]
> > http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
> >      [14] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
> >
> >
> >
> >

-- 

Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200
   sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
  Email: janina@rednote.net

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Protocols & Formats http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
 Indie UI   http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/

Received on Wednesday, 27 August 2014 02:49:03 UTC